Technology

hmatthias said:

Will this change break the 1911 scenario, or will it just be messed up a bit? Can't wait to try out the new techs in the 1897 scenario. Finally, something to do between 1900 and 1914 .

Must stop playing...must finish parser....

Click to expand...

The 1911 scenario will probably be a little bit strange.....

Maybe I can get my act together and do it, too.

Maybe that wenseslas character can help ya . Not a big deal, just was wondering. I'll just keep out of it until it is integrated.

Looking forward to test your new techtree today. Just have to do some RL-stuff first.

A bit confused about the tech tree (looked at it last night for a bit). First of all, do all countries have the same tree, or did you change it at the country level? Secondly, I thought the naval tech tree was changed. It looks the same as it did before. Maybe I misread and only the units changed. Otherwise, the added industrial stuff looks great!

hmatthias said:

A bit confused about the tech tree (looked at it last night for a bit). First of all, do all countries have the same tree, or did you change it at the country level? Secondly, I thought the naval tech tree was changed. It looks the same as it did before. Maybe I misread and only the units changed. Otherwise, the added industrial stuff looks great!

Click to expand...

The naval techtree has some changes but they are to individual components rather than the appearance of the tree (there is 1 more destroyer tech).

The big changes to doctrines aren't yet finalised.

Replying to both hmatthias and TheLand

The problem was that there were:

a) some changes made and issued in the 080404 dev version
b) the naval mod, which was not in the 08040 dev version
c) the industrial tech tree, which affects files that are also affected by the naval mod (tech_names, .inc files etc.)

So what I had to do was combine 080404 dev version plus naval plus industry mod into one consisten set of files. I didn not change anything regarding the naval mod, in fact not all the naval mod is in my files because some parts are specific to HOI2 and DD.

However, with what I did Manstein should be able to produce a new dev version.

The changes between the two versions is only that now I have all the 1914 .incs files in correctly.

I suggest that my combined files are now checked, especially by TheLand to see wether I have left out any parts of the naval mod ....

Most importantly, I think a dev version is called for to bring everybody back to the same state of things.

AND SORRY, I JUST LOOKED INTO THE DOWNLOAD AND I DID NOT INCLUDE THE TECH TREE BMP BY KRISS_NOR - IT CAN BE DOWNLOADED IN THE GRAPHICS SECTION.

Some Details of the new indsutrial tech tree

I would like to point out the following regarding the new indsutry tech tree, which may be important in game balancing and event writing.

A pre-industrial society is now set to about 10% industrial efficiency and very low research. All industrial research paths are closed to them.

1st industrial revolution raises a country to 50% industrial efficiency and 50% research efficiency. 1st industrial revolution cannot be researched, it has to be granted by event. Quing China is the most notable nation with this setting. At some point they should gain the ability to research 2nd industrial revolution by event. Quing China does thus make very inefficient use of its industries and is it no longer necessary to take away IC from China.

A 1st industrial revolution country can research light industry techs, but no heavy industry techs. Telecom, Intel, Agriculture etc. are also closed to them.

2nd industrial revolution cannot be researched either. However, I want some countries to be able to research it from the start. Thus there is an invisible tech (5990) that is granted to many countries. All that this tech does is make 2nd industrial revolution researchable.

So Russia starts with 1st industrial revolution and tech 5990 and thus can research 2nd industrial revolution in 1897. It will take them until 1899/1900 to finish it. During this time they will be significantly behind other nations in industrial efficiency and research performance. The same goes for the Ottomans, the Balkan countries and many South American countries.

A country with 2nd Industrial revolution reaches 75% industrial efficiency and 75 % research efficiency. It will then gradually research its way to something like 140 - 150% for both.

Most major nations thus start with 80 to 90% industrial efficiency. This is the reason I have eliminated the industrial growth events, which set nations to 75 to 80% efficiency and then increased them 1 percent or so per year.

However, most nations are a bit more powerful now than they used to be before, so we may need a lot of finetuning. However, research should overall be slower than it used to be before. I have also made many techs harder to research.

The target is to let the tech team quality show and to have nations with different states of development in 1914. But now we have to add more techs to other trees before we play around too much with the industrial tech tree.

Tegetthoff said:

I suggest that my combined files are now checked, especially by TheLand to see wether I have left out any parts of the naval mod ....

Click to expand...

I shall do so this evening, when I'm bored with the Rome demo. ;-)

I should have some modding time this weekend which I will use to finalise the naval doctrines part of the mod, and hopefully you can incorporate that, or VM can incorporate it in the 0.43dev file.

Once that is done I will look at your industrial changes and have a think about land doctrine as well.

Guess finishing the Wikipedia article on dreadnoughts will have to wait another w/e or two ;-)

I have a little objection on two things.

1. Thing: 10% industrial efficiency
This is a little it over the top. This means, that you must have about 8-10 factories to have an IC of 1, which would mean that some nations neither build nor afford an army, and cannot pay any research. As a result, we have to aid them via events - nothing I really like.

2. Thing: Industrial revolution via Event
This causes some problems in my eyes. First, it makes it completely uninteresting to play as a minor. Together with Issue 1, this would mean that some nations are stick to rather no industry without having the chance to improve. This is quite unrealistic too. If we have a look at the 1897 map, all nations (even Liberia and Abessinia) reached a certain level of development. Keeping them away from any industrial revolution whould mean that they are at a tribal level, which is simply wrong. All territories with a tribal administration where under control of european powers by 1897.

v.Manstein said:

I have a little objection on two things.

1. Thing: 10% industrial efficiency
This is a little it over the top. This means, that you must have about 8-10 factories to have an IC of 1, which would mean that some nations neither build nor afford an army, and cannot pay any research. As a result, we have to aid them via events - nothing I really like.

2. Thing: Industrial revolution via Event
This causes some problems in my eyes. First, it makes it completely uninteresting to play as a minor. Together with Issue 1, this would mean that some nations are stick to rather no industry without having the chance to improve. This is quite unrealistic too. If we have a look at the 1897 map, all nations (even Liberia and Abessinia) reached a certain level of development. Keeping them away from any industrial revolution whould mean that they are at a tribal level, which is simply wrong. All territories with a tribal administration where under control of european powers by 1897.

Click to expand...

Any settings like 10% etc. can be discussed, obviously. But please play it first and see how it works out (I haven´t played it either a lot yet).

EDIT: looked into the files, it is 25% for pre-industrial. I saw that 1 IC nations seem to remain at 1 IC.

Stuck at a certain level: sorry: very realistic. Any technology can be researched in two to three years by any nation. So if you permit constant research from tribal to 2nd industrial revolution, every nation will be there by 1905.

The nations I have set at pre-industrial are:
Madhiya, Ahaggar, Benin nations (Sokotra), Samoa, Jebel Shammar, Abisynnia, Afghanistan

The nations I have set at 1st Industrial revolution without possibility to research 2nd:
Bhutan, China, Liberia, Hawai, Hejaz, Oman, Persia

All others can research 2nd industrial revolution.

NO tech team is going to sit down in Ahaggar and develop steel industry by 1910. And China is not going to modernize between 1897 and 1905. We might see a change by 1910, but China was still backwards in 1937 when their war with Japan started.

At the moment I am still disappointed that it is not possible to have significant differences between nations in 1914 if you start the 1897 scenarios.

Industry tech tree

Last fix (April 9):

http://www.savefile.com/files/1494400

It contains the tech tree template made by Kriss_nor I left out last night plus four new tech pics made by kriss_nor. Now only improved horse breedings has no pic ....

I did not touch the 1911 scenarios files. I would very much appreciate a new dev version and promise to put in the industry techs for 1911 ons it is released. However, if the dev version comes with the naval changes already installed, I would be very happy.

I agree with Tegetthoff's changes here. I hate to see countries like Afghanastan become powerhouses and build tons of troops. Just seems silly to me. Seems that he has limited the countries that can't do much to a reasonable amount, and most players are not going to play as Jebbel Samar or something anyways. As long as we have most nations folks play be able to get to the 2nd Industrial Revolution, things should be fine and much more balanced, in my opinion.

Well I agree to the techs too, but I want to give nothing via event only.

Most nations affected do have only few and bad techteams. There was a possibility to double the research-time for components. If we do so, these nations may research for years. Furthermore, we could call the AI to the rescue, so that they ignore these techs. But a human player should be able to research it (even from the beginning), if he likes to.

I think it's time for a new dev, but I doubt that models.csv is HoI2-compatible. (It wont cause any error-messages, but if I remember right, units get the wrong name in HoI2 then.)

v.Manstein said:

Well I agree to the techs too, but I want to give nothing via event only.

Most nations affected do have only few and bad techteams. There was a possibility to double the research-time for components. If we do so, these nations may research for years. Furthermore, we could call the AI to the rescue, so that they ignore these techs. But a human player should be able to research it (even from the beginning), if he likes to.

Click to expand...

Also, be aware of the challenge of playing a micro-minor: it is exactly the fact that you cannot research top level technologies. Play as Mahdiya, beat the British, conquer Egpyt and all of this with guys wielding swords and spears - that is a challenge and that is what they would historically have had to do.

v.Manstein said:

I think it's time for a new dev, but I doubt that models.csv is HoI2-compatible. (It wont cause any error-messages, but if I remember right, units get the wrong name in HoI2 then.)

Click to expand...

I did not change anything in models.csv, I just included it from the naval mod. I understand The Land was working on a new models.csv.

Well, maybe it is also time to state again how much easier life would be if we terminated HOI2 support .... (Ceterum censeo ...)

Tegetthoff said:

I did not change anything in models.csv, I just included it from the naval mod. I understand The Land was working on a new models.csv....

Click to expand...

To repeat myself for about the 10th time....

Please continue to use the existing HOI2 version of models.csv in the HOI2 version. The changes are purely cosmetic. I created no new models.

If I had known that altering models.csv was going to hold things up I would never have changed it.

TheLand said:

If I had known that altering models.csv was going to hold things up I would never have changed it.

Click to expand...

No no, this doesn't hold things up. Just wanted to know if there were made new changes to the models-file. Next Dev is on the way

TheLand said:

To repeat myself for about the 10th time....

Please continue to use the existing HOI2 version of models.csv in the HOI2 version. The changes are purely cosmetic. I created no new models.

If I had known that altering models.csv was going to hold things up I would never have changed it.

Click to expand...

I believe this is one of the strengths of Hearts of Iron, of our mod and also of your efforts: details!

Having the correct model name will matter to some naval buffs (that´s you and me for a start), provide a rich background for others and will be a source of information to even others more!

So it is important to get the details right and it is a good thing that you modified the models.csv

Ok this is the latest version, all industry techs now have pics, several bad pics replaced by the new ones done by Kris_Nor

http://www.savefile.com/files/1496277

Also: Kris_Nor´s counter strip for DD!