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VIP - POPs, POP Growth and Demographic Issues

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Rossiya said:
But I thought there was now some enthusiasm for scripting POP additions where the game engine is unlikely to do it on its own?
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We want to keep this to a minimum, only using such events where absolutely necessary (Australia and New Zealand to represent convict transportation, and to subsidise since they don't get many colonial migrants anymore). Also, a few Germans, etc. I wouldn't have thought were essential to the scope of the mod whatsoever. To me it would just be a waste of an event ID as they didn't have such a significant effect on that country's development.
 
Have anyone tried kludging it?

The term democracy cannot be exactly applied to either the UK or the USA, yet both nations are widely deemed to be democratic. However the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy and the USA is a Republic.

I always felt in Victoria that the UK should end up as a Democracy. Given that in Victoria a democracy is perfectly permitted to have wealth as a prerequisite for the vote I don't think that the UK was really what was termed as a constitutional monarchy.

A constitutional monarchy can pretty much mean anything from a near absolute monarchy where the Emperor has a cabinet elected by the aristocracy, however he has the absolute veto over everything to what the UK is now.

What it should mean in game terms is more liberal than the first example but less than the UK is now.

Perhaps a good question would be... can the Monarch realistically dismiss parliament and bring in an entirely new cabinet, grossly unpopular with the populace without complete civil war breaking out (mass demonstrations is fine). The answer would be probably yes at the start of Vic:R but certainly not at the end.

Where am I getting with all of this? Immigration for Canada, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa is hammered because the UK is not a democracy, yet releases them as such.

If the first act of the UK with responsible government for Canada gave it the "bonus" of crossing the fuzzy line between Constitutional Monarchy and Democracy then South Africa, all parts of Australia, New Zealand would all be Democracies, with all the immigration bonuses that entailed.
 
The UK, Canada, Australia, etc... all were (and still are) Constitutional Monarchies. That is their consitution. What you are getting at, I believe, is the executive designation, which in those countries was (and is) "Parliamentarianism", and this is the case in-game. This basically means that parliament is superior, and hence the monarch can't (or rather, doesn't) dismiss the parliament.

As for the lack of migrants to the colonies, this is because less POPs are made to be out of work like they are in vanilla. This is because RGO level is higher, meaning more POPs are in employment, and thus less likely to migrate. In addition, releasing the colonies reduces the places where colonial migration can occur (since the UK no longer owns it).
 
It's the lack of immigration, rather than migration. If you ever play a game as Canada, for example, watch the difference when you are a consitutional monarchy compared to a Democracy.

If we're going to be semantic about it... then the difference we seem to be imposing on the game is a Republican vs. Monarchist one. Where any "democratic" Republic is termed as a Democracy, and any country with a monarch, no matter how democratic is a constitutional monarchy. Factually I'm not aware of any Democracy in the world, there are many democratic countries though, regardless if they have a monarchy or went republic.

The game engine doesn't work that way for immigration. It views a consitutional monarchy as significantly less attractive for people to emigrate to.

We should consider the two major differences between Democracy and Constitutional Monarchy in game as far as politics goes.

A Democracy gets a -militancy all the time due to plurality. This quickly goes to 40+ without effort, and by midway through the game is easily 100. They also get a militancy penalty for any pops which don't like a new government when is elected. I've yet to have any problems with a Democracy where I have plurality at 40+.

A constitutional monarchy has none of the plurality benefits (or the slight penalty an early democracy gets), nor does it have pops going militant because their party didn't get in. Eventually I run into militancy problems as a constitutional monarchy because plurality doesn't help.

If the AI UK was a democracy we'd see little difference, the AI, as far as I'm aware, does not switch governments on it's own. Towards the end of the game the UK would be less militant than it is now.
 
Generally I don't find the UK to be militant at all in my games (except for various events which have been added). Furthermore, it would be quite wrong to have the UK as a democracy, though I do agree the engine gives a high degree of favouritism for a democracy over other forms of government.

In addition, having a nation as democratic does not increase immigration. See the VickyWiki. As you mention, it gets negative militancy due to plurality increases, though that would only reduce the number of emigrants, not increase the number of immigrants.
 
This would only happen to countries which people emigrated from, rather than to.

Perhaps simply having Canada/Australia/NZ/South Africa as democracies would fix it. I don't expect people emigrate from those countries - and if they do we don't really want it. And it might give them a little bit of a lift in the way of immigration.

Edit : Being a democracy does increase immigration.
 
But democracy is simply not right. Queen Victoria... a monarch... constitutional monarchy! :p

I'm not sure that being a democracy does increase immigration. Perhaps it is just your national value being liberty that does this? Also, democracies seem to be more likely of having high plurality, also increasing immigration into their countries. I haven't read it anywhere, though it does seem logical.

Perhaps what might help is increasing reforms (particularly health care), as well as plurality, etc... in events to help stimulate immigration into these countries. Canada can stand a good chance of getting a lot of migrants before the ACW. We could also alter the colonial migration modifier for the UK so that more POPs go to the colonies before they get their independence.

I agree that we should try and use the engine first before we use events.
 
I did a little test on a save game I had.

March 21st 1866 as Brazil, to 1st July 1866. I was playing as Austria in this game, I just switched to Brazil to look at immigration.
The save game has them as a const. monarchy with a liberal party in power. I've edited plurality to 100%, and added reforms (laissez_faire party means I can drop the reform cost to zero).
Starting pop - 8,364,000
Final pop - 8,401,000
As a democracy
Final pop - 8,413,000

It's too late at night for me to test much longer.
 
I don't think we could realistically make the UK or any of her dominions outright democracies without it being seriously ahistorical.

One thing we could do is script plurality raising events which would make the colonies more attractive to emigrants. Or, alternatively, do away with the USA tag which invariably sucks immigrants away from other places like a hoover.
 
Palisadoes said:
We want to keep this to a minimum, only using such events where absolutely necessary (Australia and New Zealand to represent convict transportation, and to subsidise since they don't get many colonial migrants anymore). Also, a few Germans, etc. I wouldn't have thought were essential to the scope of the mod whatsoever. To me it would just be a waste of an event ID as they didn't have such a significant effect on that country's development.
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Well, one Swiss Italian, Carlo Gatti, came to England in 1847 and introduced ice cream!
 
Cinéad IV said:
I don't think we could realistically make the UK or any of her dominions outright democracies without it being seriously ahistorical.

One thing we could do is script plurality raising events which would make the colonies more attractive to emigrants. Or, alternatively, do away with the USA tag which invariably sucks immigrants away from other places like a hoover.
Click to expand...

But we call so many countries in Victoria "Democracy" none of them are outright Democracies. In game sense it must only mean where there is no unelected head of state with a functional role and veto. The UK technically has a functional head of state with a veto, but really Her Majesty the Queen has little real power and could not, for example, dismiss or replace a government without the UK being a republic in weeks. In Victoria I would term a Constitutional Monarchy as only having a semblance of democracy.
 
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