Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 13 - Don't Mess with the Pope!

[Doomdark]

Hello again folks, I do believe it is time for another dev diary!

We've basically covered most of the features in the game by now, so I thought I'd change tack and talk a bit about what we've been up to in the last week. Much of the focus lately has been on war and peace, both the rules and the AI behaviour. I am pleased to report that we've now got vassals within the same realm fighting each other like the vicious bastards they are.

We have also changed the rules a bit - vassals are now allowed to declare war on independent rulers, but independent rulers still cannot declare war on vassals. Thus, we now have William of Normandy as a vassal of France while invading England on his own. An unforeseen consequence of this is that he now tends to call in his father-in-law, another French vassal, Duke Boudewijn of Flandres to help him out. Marriage matters folks, and don't you forget it!

On a related note, Duchess Matilde of Tuscany, vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor (and the most eligible bride in Europe), tends to open the game in 1066 with a rather bad move, attacking the Pope to seize Orvieto (which is de jure part of her Duchy of Spoleto.) Other times, the Pope usurps the title Duke of Spoleto, and then Matilde feels obliged to attempt to take it back.

Either way, the unfortunate Duchess tends to get a rather nasty surprise. She has forgotten an important lesson that you might remember from an earlier diary - the Pope gets taxes from loyal bishops around Europe, making him a very, very rich man. So, while he has few levies of his own to raise, he can basically afford to hire every mercenary company in Europe! Even the mighty Holy Roman Emperor sometimes loses to the might of the Vatican.



...and there was much balancing.

Until next time!

 

[Doomdark]

oh cool, the marriages being factored into AI diplomacy if thats the technical way of saying it sounds cool!

Well, marriages are one of two ways of forming an alliance (the other one is being of the same dynasty.) We want marriages to matter.

 

[Darkrenown]

Wow, So i cannot kill the pope like i always do in EU3 :3

Sure you can. In combat or sent an assassin.

Wait, was this just testing, or can we actually play as the Papal State?

Testing.

 

[Doomdark]

Wait, was this just testing, or can we actually play as the Papal State?

Nope, you can't play as the Pope. I just switched over to create the screenie.

 

[Doomdark]

Wow, so vassals now have something to do except wait and try to break free? How will these things work? A random event gives you a claim and then you try to press it? You do need a claim to declare war? Right?

Claims are one way, but if you are a duke, you get to declare war on those who hold de jure counties in your duchy as well. There are other casus bellis as well.

 

[Darkrenown]

Same thing with the troops in Modena, 51 soldiers against the Pope's 6k?

Look at the occupations, the war has been going on for a bit, those 51 troops are either a leftover or a desperately re-raised levy.

What about technology? Have we got the same system as in CK1 and DV?

Pretty much, yes.

 

[Tegus]

Nice. Will the AI generally leave the Pope alone or will it try to take the Pope's territories just like any other AI country?

Currently the AI will try not to eliminate the Pope(well, catholic AI:s at least), but if the Pope expands, his territory is treated just like everyone else's.

 

[Doomdark]

That's what the dev diary on warfare says. I'd imagine also that the defender could demand reparations or hostages or other non-territorial prizes--he just won't be able to enforce his own territorial claims.

That's pretty much how it works, yes.

 

[Darkrenown]

The simplest way would probably be to make her a Papal ally at the start of the game, thus preventing her from going after the Pope every single time.

You want her to marry the Pope?

Perhaps if you get attacked by two allied counties, if you win, can you force them to dissolve their alliance?

I guess some people have missed it, but we did say you're only allied via marriage or dynastic ties in CK2, it's not really something you can split up.

 

[Darkrenown]

You can't break an alliance...well I suppose you could kill your spouse. You can fail to honour a call, but the alliance remains.

 

[Darkrenown]

so rather than solve CK's problem of giving the player incentives to kill his spouse, you have strengthened it tenfold.
theres no annulment then? dishonouring calls to arms have no consequences? you cant marry and not be allied? not even if its a seventh daughter to a third son? or never go to war with your sisters husband or your father-in-law? If it was requirement of creating an alliance it might be reasonable but for them to be one and the same?
thats seriously limiting, not to mention damning on the whole moral highground and historical side of things.
The best strategy in any game should not be kill your wife

You can get a divorce if the Pope oks it...How does this make killing your wife the best strategy in the game?
1) Get married, get ally.
2) Kill wife.
3) ????
4) Profit!
?

I have to say, it really puts us off revealing features when the first response is almost always a rant that assumes we are idiots and whatever feature we just mentioned will ruin the game. How about we keep calm and ask questions in a reasonable manner?

 

[Darkrenown]

Its:
1)Get married, get ally that at that moment you need.
2)Kill wife, get rid of ally whose lands now that the situation has changed covet.
3)Attack your former ally, conquer and pillage his lands.
4)Profit!
That forfeiting your alliance with someone, whoever that may be, would require either divorcing, or killing your wife is a problem.

So if instead of a wife it was just an alliance offer, how would that be different? It's handy that your temp ally has a daughter of marrying age...And good luck getting a heir from your dead wives, plus I am sure there will be no problems coming from killing you wife or upsetting her family, nor will your vassals mind that their liege is a wife slaying, ally-attacking monster. Also, how much help was your ally if you can conquer him so easily?

 

[Captain Gars]

Lets keep the discussion here a bit more friendly and mature, thank you.

 

[Tegus]

It should be noted that an alliance in CK2 is not equivalent to an alliance in our other games.

First of all, when someone is attacked, allies are not automatically called into the war.
Second, as of now, there is _no_ restriction that prohibits you from attacking an ally. This needs to be balanced of course, but I think it's likely that the only limiting factor when attacking an ally will be relation and prestige penalties(there are certain other limits though, for instance you cannot attack your wife directly). There's certainly no need to kill your wife just because you want to attack her brother, but you will probably have to watch your back after doing so...

So, what are allies in CK2 then? Allies are simply characters which you can call into a war. This includes members of you dynasty and your siblings, as well as people close connected through marriages.

Also, if you don't have strong enough allies when you want to take someone down, you might want to consider plotting against them instead. Certain plots will allow you to invite people, and once the plot is executed, these people will join your side in the war.

 

[Darkrenown]

A) The moment your Daughter passes away to the Dynasty she married into?
B) After all characters with any direction relation to your Daughter (meaning any off-spring she would have) in that same Dynasty, pass away?

Just look back on Pg 4 for my specific example I gave please .

Children get their father's dynasty, so the alliance would be over when the daughter of the French King died.

 

[Darkrenown]

Ahh awesome, that is the answer I was hoping for, although you stating what you just did leads me to believe that it will be a "Game Over" screen once all your Male Dynasty Members die out without a Male Heir like it was in CK I, even though you have Female members of your dynasty still alive and prospering, but just under a different cadet branch of your family technically. If I'm wrong in that assumption for CK II, then if you can clarify please do, heh .

TBH we have changed this a fair bit. I think you can keep playing as any valid heir of your dynasty, so if your succession law allows females you can play on as them.

 

[Captain Gars]

Well even landless characters can be valuable in a plot even though they have nothing to offer in an actual armed conflict.

 

[Captain Gars]

Plots should not just be for war, but offer the chance prevent wars. Instead of rising in rebellion to enforce said demand, gather support and go to the king and say here are the demands, pass them or we will rebel and force you to pass them.

Way ahead of you