Zunist reformation

[DPS]

Ok, in my current game, I'm very close to being able to reform the Zun faith. I'd like to see what people think of my potential picks.

For leadership, I've decided to go with Autonomous. That means no Great Holy Wars, but I don't much use the anyway. When I've taken Temporal, I've very rarely called them, and with Hierocractic, the religious head usually calls them against realms I'm not interested in fighting at the moment. Autocephalous makes no sense mechanically, and I don't see much point in it from a RP POV either. I do like the idea of a +2 to Stewardship.

For nature, even though I want to focus more on RP than on mechanics, I feel like I almost have to go with Proselytizing. I can't take Dogmatic with Autonomous, and Peaceful won't make any sense either mechanically or RP-wise, since I intend to be expansionistic. Cosmopolitan, Warmongering, and Unyielding all can make since in RP terms, but mechanically, they cripple my AI vassals when it comes to converting counties. In commenting on this choices for nature, keep in mind that I will initially have very few Zun counties in my realm, and even fewer counties with other pagan faiths (currently the only other pagan county I own is one Bon county, and I'm no planning on attacking Tibet any time soon). Most of my realm currently has one of the 3 Indian faiths; I also have several Nestorian counties and a few Sunni and Zoroastrian counties.

Ok, doctrines. I'm going to choose Dawnbreakers. This is mostly a role-playing choice as it's the special doctrine for Zunists. It's admittedly not that great a choice mechanically; Divine Marriage is mostly just flavor (and a CKII meme-generator) and Polygamy is only arguably better than concubinage, but as I said, it's an RP choice.

Second doctrine: I'm considering Monasticism. If I was going strictly on mechanics, I'd take Meritocracy so that with either Primogeniture or Ultimogeniture I could pick my successor. Monasticism will at least let me disqualify totally unsuitable heirs by granting them temples, and I like the idea of the +2 bonus to Learning (even if it's probably the least important stat).

Stability would probably make a good bit of sense RP-wise. Mechanically, it really kind of sucks. The cool-down period for using Piety to increase stats severely limits its use, and while disabling the short reign opinion malus is nice, I'm experienced enough that I can handle some unruly vassals.

Astrology would make a huge amount of sense in RP terms, but mechanically it's not much use to me since I don't have Monks and Mystics so there's no Hermetic Society to gain access to.

I don't think Syncretism fits very well with Proselytizing when it comes to RP, and mechanically I don't think it works as it's supposed to, so it's right out.

Haruspicy is very limited mechanically and doesn't seem a good match for sun worshipers anyway.

Religious tax would make a huge amount of sense mechanically, because even with Proselytizing I'm going to have a lot on counties with other religions for a long time. Not sure how it stacks up in RP terms.

I'm not interested in Equality, Agnatic Clans, or Enatic clans, nor Pyramid Creation.

I don't see myself using Prepared Invasions in this game, so Daring is out.

Any raiding I do is going to be overland, and the Zun heartland is landlocked, so Seabound makes no sense however you look at it.

Animistic is out--my people worship the Sun, not spirits.

I don't really have any particular thoughts on Unrelenting one way or the other.

The remaining doctrines are blocked by taking either Proselytizing, Dawnbreakers, or Autonomous.

Thoughts?

 

[ThatGuyFromSeinfeld]

Everyone knows that the only correct way to reform Zun is
Unyelding
Bloodthirsty Gods, Agnatic Clans
Temporal.


Seriously, though, the only thing I can recommend is Religious Tax. It's going to bring in huge amounts of money for you.

 

[Dragatus]

In addition to being able to call great holy wars reforming as Temporal also gives you special headgear. For Zun you get the Solar Crown that when worn gives +2 Stewardship, +2 Intrigue, and some monthly Prestige and Piety.

Proselytizing nature is indeed the only serious choice if you want a religiously uniform realm. That said, Unyielding AI characters will convert their counties too if they have a high ai_zeeal stat (for example from having the Zealous trat). But it's more trouble to ensure your vassals have the trait. With Proselytizing you don't have to do anything.

Religious Tax is one way to bypass the limitation in conversion and turn a "bug" into a feature. It opens you up to picking something like Warmongering or Unyielding as your nature, so you can think of the benefits of those as added to the benefit of Religious Tax itself.

 

[similan]

I'd strongly advise against dawnbreaker and pick another doctrine. It gives 0 extra events and all your vassals will marry their 0 old daughters and ,as far as I know, gives no special events.
For proselytizing, I've picked unyielding and my realm has been converted without me interfering anyway. I take it peasant revolts and such arent a problem so I dont believe proselytizing is a must have at all.

 

[jonjowett]

You could go with a "schizophrenic" approach: Cosmopolitan, Religious Tax, Bloodthirsty Gods, (whatever).

With this, you hold three simultaneous and contradictory attitudes towards people of other faiths:

• they are welcome (Cosmopolitan);
• they are barely tolerated and exploited (Religious Tax); and
• they are hated so much that they are the only acceptable sacrifices (Bloodthirsty Gods).

EDIT: More seriously, Ancestor worship (with Heirocratic) is a pretty awesome doctrine. Eldership succession is easy-mode - you only have to bribe a few unlanded elders to be able to choose any successor you like. And, if you choose heirocratic/autocephalous, your previous characters can become venerated - an easy way to get more bloodlines.

 

[Alphaviki]

I agree with what most people say here. But if you are looking more for an interesting idea than I‘d choose Dogmatic+Dawnbreaker+Temporal+Any other doctrin (I‘d probably take Meritocracy as well), because then you have the fun side effect, that you are the High-God of your own religion, which I imagine is quiet fun from a rp perspective, but if you want to play more serious I agree with the others

 

[MateuszS]

Ok, in my current game, I'm very close to being able to reform the Zun faith. I'd like to see what people think of my potential picks.

For leadership, I've decided to go with Autonomous. That means no Great Holy Wars, but I don't much use the anyway. When I've taken Temporal, I've very rarely called them, and with Hierocractic, the religious head usually calls them against realms I'm not interested in fighting at the moment. Autocephalous makes no sense mechanically, and I don't see much point in it from a RP POV either. I do like the idea of a +2 to Stewardship.

For nature, even though I want to focus more on RP than on mechanics, I feel like I almost have to go with Proselytizing. I can't take Dogmatic with Autonomous, and Peaceful won't make any sense either mechanically or RP-wise, since I intend to be expansionistic. Cosmopolitan, Warmongering, and Unyielding all can make since in RP terms, but mechanically, they cripple my AI vassals when it comes to converting counties. In commenting on this choices for nature, keep in mind that I will initially have very few Zun counties in my realm, and even fewer counties with other pagan faiths (currently the only other pagan county I own is one Bon county, and I'm no planning on attacking Tibet any time soon). Most of my realm currently has one of the 3 Indian faiths; I also have several Nestorian counties and a few Sunni and Zoroastrian counties.

Ok, doctrines. I'm going to choose Dawnbreakers. This is mostly a role-playing choice as it's the special doctrine for Zunists. It's admittedly not that great a choice mechanically; Divine Marriage is mostly just flavor (and a CKII meme-generator) and Polygamy is only arguably better than concubinage, but as I said, it's an RP choice.

Second doctrine: I'm considering Monasticism. If I was going strictly on mechanics, I'd take Meritocracy so that with either Primogeniture or Ultimogeniture I could pick my successor. Monasticism will at least let me disqualify totally unsuitable heirs by granting them temples, and I like the idea of the +2 bonus to Learning (even if it's probably the least important stat).

Stability would probably make a good bit of sense RP-wise. Mechanically, it really kind of sucks. The cool-down period for using Piety to increase stats severely limits its use, and while disabling the short reign opinion malus is nice, I'm experienced enough that I can handle some unruly vassals.

Astrology would make a huge amount of sense in RP terms, but mechanically it's not much use to me since I don't have Monks and Mystics so there's no Hermetic Society to gain access to.

I don't think Syncretism fits very well with Proselytizing when it comes to RP, and mechanically I don't think it works as it's supposed to, so it's right out.

Haruspicy is very limited mechanically and doesn't seem a good match for sun worshipers anyway.

Religious tax would make a huge amount of sense mechanically, because even with Proselytizing I'm going to have a lot on counties with other religions for a long time. Not sure how it stacks up in RP terms.

I'm not interested in Equality, Agnatic Clans, or Enatic clans, nor Pyramid Creation.

I don't see myself using Prepared Invasions in this game, so Daring is out.

Any raiding I do is going to be overland, and the Zun heartland is landlocked, so Seabound makes no sense however you look at it.

Animistic is out--my people worship the Sun, not spirits.

I don't really have any particular thoughts on Unrelenting one way or the other.

The remaining doctrines are blocked by taking either Proselytizing, Dawnbreakers, or Autonomous.

Thoughts?

With heathens being non-pagans the only way to deal with them swiftly is proselytizing or unyielding. With M&M, Zunists already have access to Hermetics, so that's another point against astrology. I'd advise taking temporal, because zunist artifact gives +2 stewardship, too - but it's your choice. Both meritocracy and monasticism are quite good in dealig with lots of heirs (there are better, but not accessible with your preferences ).

You could go with a "schizophrenic" approach: Cosmopolitan, Religious Tax, Bloodthirsty Gods, (whatever).

With this, you hold three simultaneous and contradictory attitudes towards people of other faiths:

• they are welcome (Cosmopolitan);
• they are barely tolerated and exploited (Religious Tax); and
• they are hated so much that they are the only acceptable sacrifices (Bloodthirsty Gods).

EDIT: More seriously, Ancestor worship (with Heirocratic) is a pretty awesome doctrine. Eldership succession is easy-mode - you only have to bribe a few unlanded elders to be able to choose any successor you like. And, if you choose heirocratic/autocephalous, your previous characters can become venerated - an easy way to get more bloodlines.

Funny enough, "schizo build" might work - heathens are to be exploited
AV is excellent succession doctrine, but mediocre in terms of bloodlines.

Hmmm, how about Dogmatic+Bloodthirsty Gods+Dawnbreakers+Temporal - kill people in your own name

 

[manager2525]

Just one quick suggestion (although from what i understand you already lean to that direction). When chosing autonomous always go with prosylitizing as well if you want anything converted. The lack of religious head will cripple your MA even further so prosylitizing is a must.

The only other possible setup would be Peaceful, Religious tax, something, Autonomous. You will not be converting anything but you will have all that sweet religious tax and very few rebelions due to Peaceful. Also huge demense limit.

 

[Andrzej2]

If you pick Temporal and dogmatic your head of religion itself is considered a god. I think it's quite entertaining.

Recently I played Zunist and picked temporal + dogmatic + downbreakers + daring. Daring allowed me to prepare invasion on Trebizond and become a Byzantine Emperor. Lands in Afghanistan I mostly gave away to the Holy Order. It was really interesting game. Zunist incest + byzantine government + god emperor.

Some screens:

Spoiler

Teach a child about a God Emperor:

My Wife Sister Crown Princess doesn't love me anymore:

At the peak of the reign:

Zunist China:

Death, he is with Andreas now (next God Emperor):

 

[MateuszS]

Being living god can create hilarious outcomes in event descriptions, indeed...

And from what I have seen in game files, dogmatic isn't needed for being supreme god (just Divine Alliance/Dawnbreakers and Temporal).