Zoroastrian strategies

[Deaghaidh]

I've seen a fair number of people post screenshots from successfull games as that one independant Zoroastrian satrap (for some reason I can't recall the name), going on to conquering Persia and such. But for the life of me, I can't get anywhere with them. Within the first two years I get hit with a holy war from my muslim neighbors or an invasion from my tengri ones. Sometimes I'm able to fend off that one, but I almost always suffer an immediate attack on the opposite front before my army can recover.

How are people survivng, even thriving, with such an inauspicous starting position?

 

[Lord Xia]

Well, my strategy was restart and try again. I failed 5 times before succeeding in creating a Zoroastrian kingdom that could survive. There are a lot of post about different strategies that have worked, but it's really about timing and luck. You start with a fairly large event army, use it well.

 

[Chyll]

One early option I have tried is to swear fealty to Khiva (when playing as... Karin? I forget the name), and then usurp Khiva from inside. After that, it seems like a bit of a knife fight, and I've only tried a couple of quick starts to test the waters so far.

 

[Maraxus]

Yagbuid is first, Samanid is second (Khivan) (third (Sarmakand) and forth (rest of Merv)).
After that my first guy died, but his son made it to this "Saviour of the world"-Title within his 75 year life.
As always: Mercenaries are a key. Try to get one or two of them as fast as possible. build one Doomstack and assault holdings where possible, to finish your holy wars against Samanid as fast as possible. If they drag the guys from the south into the war and you have some spare money, assassinating the helping Monarch takes his nation out of the war, but simply winning fast enough is cheaper.
To afford all those merc, I decided to install lord mayors in the provinces I did not want for myself and raise the city tax to high. It helps to have high enough diplomacy to flatter and sooth the Lord mayors when they come asking for a tax reduction (Your start character is randomly generated, iirc, so if you get only horrible stats, maybe start new, or use the ruler designer)

 

[Azkor]

The largest problem I have had is surviving the Caliph. The start is fairly simple, the problem is once you get a border with the Caliph you are going to have monster sized doomstacks all over. Mercs can only go so far when you have 60-80k troops from the Caliph roaming around. Always make sure your spy master is working on building plots against the Caliph and the Chancellor is working to SOW desent. You need the Caliph to splinter if possible.

Oh and always pay attention to the decadence of the surrounding muslim states. If they are fighting a decadence war you might be able to snap off chunks of their territory. Just dont get greedy.

 

[Isaios]

The largest problem I have had is surviving the Caliph. The start is fairly simple, the problem is once you get a border with the Caliph you are going to have monster sized doomstacks all over. Mercs can only go so far when you have 60-80k troops from the Caliph roaming around. Always make sure your spy master is working on building plots against the Caliph and the Chancellor is working to SOW desent. You need the Caliph to splinter if possible.

The Caliph is a horrid beast, no doubt, plots and assassinations are key. And there's also the ever-funny hobby of killing off all descendants of the Prophet, that's a great blast.

It's useful to pay attention to what the Caliph is doing. If he's busy warring somewhere, it's a good time to strike at Sunni rulers nearby.

Oh and always pay attention to the decadence of the surrounding muslim states. If they are fighting a decadence war you might be able to snap off chunks of their territory. Just dont get greedy.

But don't attack them UNTILL they're in a Decadence war, or your war will keep them safe from Decadence hordes.


It's also useful to either conquer a bit northwards, or try to convert them, as this'll open some more avenues of alliances. And look out for the Shia uprising. It's ... not fun. And Seljuks. They're also not fun. It's almost a must to have broken the Caliphate before they show, or you'll be stuck between a hard and another hard place. Like I was the first time I tried this. >_< Massive death from all sides. Great fun

It helps to unify Persia before getting a border with the Caliph, if it can be arranged.

 

[Steelbadger]

After a semi-successful Karen game (Got Persia, Seljuks crammed me) I've decided to have a go with Marzban Rostom of Tabiristan. He's cool because he's (probably) directly decended from the Sassanids. But he doesn't get an event army. He has two holdings, his liege is Shia and only a Satrap (so no quick/easy way to get hold of a Satrap title, without which expansion is pointless as you can't have count level vassals).

The furthest I got was about 40 years, I managed to hold together 4 counties and swear fealty to the Saffarids to avoid the inevitable Holy War. I even managed to keep him reasonably happy and he left me to my infidel ways. Then the Abbasids conquered the Saffarids which, for some reason completely unknown to me, gave the Saffarid Satrap strong claims on every one of his vassals titles. The very first thing he did was tell me he was seizing one of my titles. I had saved up a couple of thousand gold by this point and was able to get him to eat his words, causing him to abdicate. His heir inherited the claims, and he immediately did the same. My money had run dry I couldn't resist. So I lost. And so it goes.

The shortest time I survived was when the Karens declared a Holy War for my territory. I thought this could be good, after all I wasn't an infidel so I should just get a new liege. He converted to Sunni approximately 1 week before he won the war for my land. So I got kicked off.

I'd be very very insterested to see a successful Bavandid game, at the moment it's completely roflstomping me.

 

[Rubidium]

Zoroastrians need to be at least somewhat lucky. If the Yagbuids hit you at the beginning, you are screwed. One thing I like to do as Karen is hit the Sunni duchy right below me at the start for Khorasan, while they're busy fighting the Saffarids. If you're quick, you can go ahead and grab the duchy (which contains one of the Zoroastrian Holy Sites, BTW) before he gets conquered by the Saffarids, and if you're really lucky, you can then turn around and use your new border to take Samarkand from Khiva. Once that happens, they no longer have a border with the Saffarids, so you can Holy War Khiva for the rest of their territory at your leisure. Just be sure to switch to Primogeniture before you usurp/create a kingdom title, if you want it.

Going north can get you more land and soldiers, as the various Tengriist states seem to love beating each other up. Use gold strictly for mercenaries until you are strong enough to survive; buildings aren't worth it at first.

Once you take Birjand from the Saffarids, they are mostly crippled; the next few wars will only be difficult if the Abbasids get involved, so time them for when they're busy. After that, it's just expanding, managing succession crises, and waiting for the Seljuks to show up and smash you.

 

[orthezuma]

another option is to play pagan and take zoroastrian concubine then convert,get a stable powerful realm then go for persia.

 

[TomosCaerllion]

another option is to play pagan and take zoroastrian concubine then convert,get a stable powerful realm then go for persia.

This is the strategy I opt for. It might not suit everyone though, as it isn't an ethnic Persian revival. However, the Parthians were a semi-nomadic Caspian people that moved south to form a great empire, so it doesn't feel too wrong to have a steppe tribe convert to Zoroastrianism and then founding a great dynasty and Persian Empire.

 

[Barsoom]

I'm 20 years in on a game with the Justanid count of Gilan, it's going pretty well. Start as an independent count, 4800 event troops. Before unpausing I declared war for Tabiristan, because it's next door and my religion. I beat back Holy War from the duke to the north, netting 260 gold, then intervened in an Abbasid civil war to the west to grab the rest of Gilan's duchy, including my first holy site. Took out Azerbaijan next, so I now have a 3 duchy independent state. As the Abbasid civil war is still going on, I think I'll grab some Mesopotamian lands from some traitorous vassal next. Persia is all Saffarid, I can't get at it, but I murdered its king so it's in a regency and at least can't attack me. Karen converted early and is anyway mostly conquered by Khiva.

Luck played its part, I'm sure, I got at least 2 counties from a rebelling duke and no Caliphate intervention. But those 4800 no-cost troops play a bigger part, in my opinion. To preserve them I've never stormed a holding. I fought all major battles defensively in mountains. My count, now duke, got 2 military upgrades, first organization for the speed bonus, then mountain fighting. After 20 years of almost continuous fighting, I have 600 free fighters left and my levies now amount to 4200, so I'm back at starting strength but with 10 times the territory.

 

[Deaghaidh]

How are you guys able to not be dogpiled in the first war? With the special troops you start with you're strong enough to fight one of your neighbors, but I always get weakened to the point the AI decides to be opportunistic.

 

[unmerged(196495)]

Luck is a big part. I formed Saoshyant in the 3rd generation (941), and then overwrote the save while playing a separate campaign (facepalm).

Strategy is entirely dependent on how your neighborhood plays out, but there are some consistently applicable tips.

Suggestions:

1 - Don't be under the belief that any of the Sunnis need to border you or your target to gang up on holy wars.

2 - If you are going to swear to Khiva and push for elective this needs to be done BEFORE he can institute limited crown law or the option disappears.

3 - Try and kill the two county count vassal since you are his heir. If you can't, I recommend the full tyrant strategy. Imprison and banish every vassal (keep renominating someone to be your marshal for suppressing revolts). Before your first war raise all the levies, distribute titles to vassals and raise levies again (its an exploit but this is a hard start). If you do it right, you should have over 300 gold and 10-11k troops for your first war depending on how big your initial free stack was.

4 - If the fighting phase of a war is effectively over, don't use the free troops to siege unless your instincts tell you that someone else is about to wrap up their war and join in.

5 - Temporarily assign chancellor and spymaster as scouts to disperse fog of war.

6. Early aggression and then pretend you are the AI Doge of Venice (vulture).

 

[Azkor]

How are you guys able to not be dogpiled in the first war? With the special troops you start with you're strong enough to fight one of your neighbors, but I always get weakened to the point the AI decides to be opportunistic.

I have only played Karen, but I followed a suggestion that was posted here.

Swear fealty to Khiva. You now have 300% of the liege's troops so push for elective monarchy. Wait for the first war and assist our liege in beating them, usually the tengrist from the north. After that war is done push to be named king, your liege should kneel since you have so much more power than him.

Now the old king and his sunni friends rebel, beat them and strip them of titles. Give the titles to priests, much more stable realm this way. Your southern border should still be in a civil war so snatch up some provinces with holy wars.

Try and get Gilian before the Caliph does.

Now comes the hard part, when you get a border with the Caliph its only a matter of time before they holy war you. Try and kill the Caliph if possible and always sow dissent. If the Caliph is in a decadence war or civil war snatch up border provinces quick. I would try for Baghdad, Mosul, Fars and Hammadan(?) first. They are rich and have lots of holdings. try and avoid letting the Caliph getting the far south east duchy in Persia, thats a dagger in your belly if you do.

Always fight on mountains across rivers, always save all money for mercs, only use horse archer mercs since in the low tech period most casualties are skirmish. Try and keep your army back from the border, if possible retake provinces when the main Caliph army moves on and never ever fight if at all possible, the sheer numbers will win since you will be outnumbered 10 : 1.

 

[unmerged(196495)]

How are you guys able to not be dogpiled in the first war? With the special troops you start with you're strong enough to fight one of your neighbors, but I always get weakened to the point the AI decides to be opportunistic.

If you are going to be fighting someone strong like the Yagbuids, try and hire the Cuman band. They will help to quickly rip apart any flank they oppose, and inflict a lot of pursuit phase casualties, they also can assault holdings with minimal casualties, even without that 10:1 ration. Your war will end quicker, and if you made a profit from sieging or reparations, don't dismiss them. Attack someone vulnerable.

 

[Keinwyn]

I opted for an agressive strattegy.

1. Reloaded until I had a decent number of event troops (it varies between 3k and 5.5k) I settled for 4.2k in the end.
2. Declared war on the Tahirids on day one for duchy of Khorsan. (Saffarids are at war with them and can do most of the heavy lifting)
3. Samanids join the war against me. I hire the cuman band. They attack me in mountains with equal numbers. predictable result. Gives me enough war score to peace out with the Tahirids.
4. Hand out all new land to existing vassals to max opinion. Put up feudal contract law.
5. Immediately declare war on Samanids for Samarkand. Cuman band still on retainer.
6. Saffarids finish their war and join Samanids against me. The six month wait for vassal levies from new provinces is over - raise them.
7. Saffarids attack me with equal numbers in mountains... predictable result. Peace out for Samarkand.
8. Immediately declare war on Saffarids for Birjand. Win the war.

Position is now secure ~15k troops and its only 6 years into the game so the Abbasids are still a mess. Formed Persian empire by 911. Could have been earlier if I'd sucked up the break truce penalty.

This strategy does rely on the pagans not attacking, which happened in my second game and slowed things down a little, but was still successful.

If they do attack, let them siege stuff for a while. Your vassals' holdings are irrelevant as liege levies are determined by total potential troops.

 

[Theddude]

Zoroastrians need to be at least somewhat lucky. If the Yagbuids hit you at the beginning, you are screwed. One thing I like to do as Karen is hit the Sunni duchy right below me at the start for Khorasan, while they're busy fighting the Saffarids. If you're quick, you can go ahead and grab the duchy (which contains one of the Zoroastrian Holy Sites, BTW) before he gets conquered by the Saffarids, and if you're really lucky, you can then turn around and use your new border to take Samarkand from Khiva. Once that happens, they no longer have a border with the Saffarids, so you can Holy War Khiva for the rest of their territory at your leisure. Just be sure to switch to Primogeniture before you usurp/create a kingdom title, if you want it.

Going north can get you more land and soldiers, as the various Tengriist states seem to love beating each other up. Use gold strictly for mercenaries until you are strong enough to survive; buildings aren't worth it at first.

Once you take Birjand from the Saffarids, they are mostly crippled; the next few wars will only be difficult if the Abbasids get involved, so time them for when they're busy. After that, it's just expanding, managing succession crises, and waiting for the Seljuks to show up and smash you.

I keep seeing people suggesting to attack the Tahirids and I keep trying and it never works. The problems I encounter are that the Saffarids take provinces in Khorasan pretty quickly so you're guaranteed to lose those and that I can never get enough warscore fast enough before they accept annexation by the Saffarids. It only seems to speed up the Samanids conquest to your doorstep. Are you assaulting during the sieges? Maybe you have to get lucky and capture one of the guy's family members or something.

I've never really favored the Khorasan approach just because it seems like you're only helping the Saffarids to get at you. It's kind of like going for one Duchy when you could go for Tabaristan and Turkestan or Khiva and get two before you're savagely attacked. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but the one time I got it to work was when I miraculously captured the Satrap.

 

[Rubidium]

I keep seeing people suggesting to attack the Tahirids and I keep trying and it never works. The problems I encounter are that the Saffarids take provinces in Khorasan pretty quickly so you're guaranteed to lose those and that I can never get enough warscore fast enough before they accept annexation by the Saffarids. It only seems to speed up the Samanids conquest to your doorstep. Are you assaulting during the sieges? Maybe you have to get lucky and capture one of the guy's family members or something.

I've never really favored the Khorasan approach just because it seems like you're only helping the Saffarids to get at you. It's kind of like going for one Duchy when you could go for Tabaristan and Turkestan or Khiva and get two before you're savagely attacked. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but the one time I got it to work was when I miraculously captured the Satrap.

It does rely a bit on luck. And yes, I do assault; the money lets you afford mercenaries. As a bonus, you can try to siege steal: get your troops in place before the Saffarid doom stack, and that way you can use their troops in the assault and prevent them from getting more war score.

As I said it's kinda risky, but it has two big advantages:
1) you don't have to take another war against the stronger Saffarids (usually backed by the Abbassids) to grab that land, instead you weaken them from the get-go
2) You can now Holy War for Samarkand instead of Khiva, which is a nicer duchy and cuts Khiva off from the Saffarids (which makes later wars easier). Plus it lets you go straight for Birjand next time the Saffarids get into a civil war (which they do frequently in my experience).

 

[disgradius]

I started as the county of Kara Kum of the Faravid dynasty so not even any special event troops for me. I went for Turkestan first using mostly mercs and leaving my liege to fend off attacking muslim states. Often piggybacked on others' wars and holy warred anyone who was getting eaten up. You get one lifeline in the form of declaring a war of independence if someone is trying to take your territory but past that it's just being opportunistic and grabbing territory through holy wars wherever you can. Best to save up for alot of mercs and assault provinces to avoid other nations joining the holy war. The Abbasids are pretty annoying since they check your expansion but just wait for them to get smacked around by the ERE and you should be fine. Once the caliph is gone, all of the middle east is yours and not even the ERE can do much about you at that point. With the Saffarids, try to take every other county in the region before you take them on and save up for some mercs when you do. Also target Birjand so you take as much territory as you can in the first go. Past that, it's just a matter of sieging provinces in the other ruler's demesne (since they have fewer garrisons with the levies out) and try to win the war as fast as you can.

 

[Barsoom]

4 - If the fighting phase of a war is effectively over, don't use the free troops to siege unless your instincts tell you that someone else is about to wrap up their war and join in.

Good idea, I'll use that next time - although not in the first war with Gilan because its starting levies are just too small to siege on their own.