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not one to flog a dead horse but...
Zoroastrianism is a religion that has at least inspired Judaism and Christianity, some consider it a forerunner to the two. It was "founded" by Zarathrusta of Nietzschean fame also called Zoroaster. It considers the world to be the battle ground of two competing forces good and evil. Ahriman (evil) and Ahura Mazda (good) compete for influence in the world. Thus Satan and Jehova/God... Fire is revered as cleansing, so guess why sinners were burnt in Purgatory...
There are apparently lots of similar ideas in the three religions, but my search for spurious magical symbols which caused this nugget to remain embedded, instead of differental equations, didn't require any deeper religious understanding.
Well many west Europeans still celebrate Saturnalia and still consider themselves Christians, it has just been rebranded as Christmas.
Zoroastrianism is a religion that has at least inspired Judaism and Christianity, some consider it a forerunner to the two. It was "founded" by Zarathrusta of Nietzschean fame also called Zoroaster. It considers the world to be the battle ground of two competing forces good and evil. Ahriman (evil) and Ahura Mazda (good) compete for influence in the world. Thus Satan and Jehova/God... Fire is revered as cleansing, so guess why sinners were burnt in Purgatory...
There are apparently lots of similar ideas in the three religions, but my search for spurious magical symbols which caused this nugget to remain embedded, instead of differental equations, didn't require any deeper religious understanding.
As Aetius said-these are local traditional holdovers from the pre-Islamic faith, just as things such as burning the yule log, and various Spring festival traditions, survive in Christian areas from Pagan times having been coopted by the incoming Church. This adoption may have happened to a lesser extent in Islam, and may have served as a cover for a hard core of "true believers" in Persia, but by 1419 I doubt if more than one person in a thousand, if that, were actually Zoroastrian in Persia.
Zoroastrianism today
According to the July 1999 issue of National Geographic's article on Iran, "Iran is more tolerant of religious minorities than many Mideast countries, attested by the presence of many synagogues where Jews instruct their children and temples in which Zoroastrians practice their ancient Persian faith." The religion has existed continuously since the Islamic conquest, just not as a major religion. I'm not gonna claim to know enough Persian history to say whether or not it warrants as much attention as Judaism gets in European history, though
According to the July 1999 issue of National Geographic's article on Iran, "Iran is more tolerant of religious minorities than many Mideast countries, attested by the presence of many synagogues where Jews instruct their children and temples in which Zoroastrians practice their ancient Persian faith." The religion has existed continuously since the Islamic conquest, just not as a major religion. I'm not gonna claim to know enough Persian history to say whether or not it warrants as much attention as Judaism gets in European history, though
Purgatory is a purely Western aberration. In the parts of the world where Christianity was actually likely to contact Zoroasterianism, the doctrine of purgatory never arose.
Actually, a point of correction. Islam is tolerant of all religions, but consider 'people of the book' as brothers - how some Muslims choose to practice it is another matter.
Secondly, when the Arab Muslims conquered Persia in the 1600's they allowed Zoroastrianism to continue based on the Islam's general pronciple of tolerance. However, after the death of the Second Caliph of Islam, the Persians rebelled following instigation from their Emperor in exile and their neghbouring Turkmens.
When the rebellion was supressed, it was thought that the best way to avoid further rebellion was by introducing Islam to the Persians through formal teaching - thus much of Persia was converted (much like what happens in EU too!). Zoroastrianism still existed though and survives till now as a minority religion.
On whether we should include it, I agree with the fact that they are usually a collective minority and have little effect - maybe we could simulate minorities like it and Judaism better though as suggested somewhere...
Zoroasterianism and variants/mixes of it (like Manichaeanism) were commonish all around Mare Nostrum around 200-300 AD. St. Augustine was a Manichaean to start of with, I believe. So a geographic approach to Zoroastric influences isn't entirely reliable. That said I'm not very sure of when purgatory appeared in the Catholic belief, so if you have some info I would be interested to know when it started. I don't believe that hell exists in the Orthodox faith either, but I not to sure about it.
I think it would be more fruitful by just having a generic heretic version of all standard religions to model Hussites, Alawites, Druze, Bogomiles and so on. The difference is a greatly increased risk of rebellion or something similar.
Are you kidding? Zoroastrianism was dead.. though yes a few people still practiced it, it was never enough to reach 8% of a country's total population.. Forget this idea, I mean, c'mon...
I can think of three religions which definately fit in the "minor religions" category for the EUII time period. Shintoism, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism. If you included one of these religions then you would have to include them all in my opimion. They would have to be minor religions meaning they wouldn't hold the majority of the population of a province except in maybe one place and would have a very junior position to the major religions and would not have nearly as big an impact. One thing I would like to see is a special OPTIONAL event for each religion. "Shintoist Revival", "Zoroastrian Revival", and "Zionist Movement". These events could be set to either build at a random rate starting at the begining of the game or they could be tied into one or more non-optional historical events.
does this mean they should also bring in other minority religions (i.e. non state religions of the nations/empires of that time) like Judaism, Sikhism, Jain religion?
oh and how about Voodoo, which technically begin in the late late 18th century (in the time frame of EU2) in the colonized Caribbean islands? why not include that too just to confuse and muddle this game even more?
oh and why don't we also include sorcery and witchcraft into the game, since they were indeed practiced since the middle ages, even tho no actual nation or empire actually used witchcraft as their formal state religion.
oh and to add more silly religions, let's also add Masonry and the Cult of the Illuminati to the list of cult religions into the game so as to screw things up even more
Oh and then we should also change the name of the game to "Religon Universalis", aka The Game with 120 Silly Non-state Religions Included to Appease All Players
oh and how about Voodoo, which technically begin in the late late 18th century (in the time frame of EU2) in the colonized Caribbean islands? why not include that too just to confuse and muddle this game even more?
oh and why don't we also include sorcery and witchcraft into the game, since they were indeed practiced since the middle ages, even tho no actual nation or empire actually used witchcraft as their formal state religion.
oh and to add more silly religions, let's also add Masonry and the Cult of the Illuminati to the list of cult religions into the game so as to screw things up even more
Oh and then we should also change the name of the game to "Religon Universalis", aka The Game with 120 Silly Non-state Religions Included to Appease All Players
I don't know about its place in game play, like the Jews, but Zoroasterism does live on. There is a remarkable temple in Chicago. Zhuban Mehta (spelling?) is a well known symphony conductor, and a follower of Zoroasterism.
Zubin Mehta is a world-famous classical conductor that I admire a lot. He was born in India. Half-Indian, half-Austrian parentage. This may explain his religious beliefs?
I attended one of his concerts when he was then the Maestro, resident conductor of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. That was many years ago.
I also have one of his CDs (of Johann Strauss) with his days as lead conductor at Vienna Philharmonic.
I believe he is now resident Maestro conductor at Israel Philharmonic. Tho I may be wrong, he may have gone to another country to conduct.
sorry I should stop now before this goes more off-topic....
First of all I'm surprised at the resurrection of this thread but now to the important question can you hear any difference between the Zoroastric conductors and the non-Zoroastric conductors?
Originally posted by Aetius
First of all I'm surprised at the resurrection of this thread but now to the important question can you hear any difference between the Zoroastric conductors and the non-Zoroastric conductors?
Yes. It's obvious that the Zoroastric conductors (like Zubin Mehta) play much better renditions of Thus Spake Zarathustra!
No, lets go off topic!Originally posted by Suleyman
Zubin Mehta is a world-famous classical conductor that I admire a lot. He was born in India. Half-Indian, half-Austrian parentage. This may explain his religious beliefs?
I attended one of his concerts when he was then the Maestro, resident conductor of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. That was many years ago.
I also have one of his CDs (of Johann Strauss) with his days as lead conductor at Vienna Philharmonic.
I believe he is now resident Maestro conductor at Israel Philharmonic. Tho I may be wrong, he may have gone to another country to conduct.
sorry I should stop now before this goes more off-topic....
I know you mean Rickard Strauss, not Johann. Johann = great waltzes, Rickard = ??? Eine Sprach Zarathustra is incredible (think 2001, A Space Oddisey, to non-classical musical fans). I have heard "Eine Heldenleben" too many times (i.e. more than once) and wince at the thought of more of the later Strauss's...
[excuse spelling errors]
Actually, Zubin has done a great job conducting both Richard Strauss (the German) as well as Johan Strauss (the Austrian waltz king).
the CD I have is actually titled Vienna Philharmonic New Years Eve Concert 1990 -- this is the Wiener Philharmoniker tradition of playing all Johan Strauss music during every new year's eve gala. And you can prolly guess that the first thing they always play is Blue Danube Waltz, and the encore is often Radetzky March, a wonderful military march dating back and used in the bands of the old hapsburg Austro-Hungarian Empire.
but you are also correct. Richard Strauss composed Eine Sprach Zarathustra, which is always added as an entry to Johan Strauss' waltz Blue Danube (e.g. in 2001 Space Odessey)
of course, we both know that Zarathustra = Zoroaster.
Richard Strauss (Rickard in German) had better hits tho, like Der Rosenklavier.
Zubin Mehta has conducted and published CD albums from both men.
Wow, a thread hijacked to discuss classical music! Great forum.
The Zarathustra bit keeps us vaguely on topic. Zubin Mehta's brother (name escapes me at this instant) was the chief of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra's summer residence in Ravinia for many years. I love those New Year concerts - the Radetzky March is always a great encore (I think they always play it).
Forgive my ignorance, but isn't the film music only "Sunrise" from Thus Spake Zarathustra...
Yes, in 2001: A Space Odyssey they only use the Introduction (sometimes thought of as a sunrise, a forest growing, the creation of the universe) from Also Sprach Zarathustra.