ZOC - still not optimal

[Daddl]

So, I got the change that allows you to go "through" a fort one province further, so you have consistent movement that allows you to stay inside the ZOC of a fort, but not leave it.

However, now it plays a role from which province an army originates, and that causes kind of dull things.

I didn't make this up. Thats the fastest ways for the two armies seperately. I didn't try what happens if I merge them. The army that can march right to Jirem occupied Setsen and never went further. The army that has to take the long way comes from Dornogovi. Two armies that are in the exactly same province should really be able to take the same path, no?

That happens if I order the one army to move to Xilin Gol and then to Jirem. Apparently tats not possible.

My solution: Enemy ZOC should be completely disabled in owned or occupied territory. You should have free and unrestricted movement through every province that you occupy. That would prevent things like that.

This is another example of the same issue. The fastest path from Khara to Il Huree is apparently this one. I could also move to Dornogovi, but would have to take the same way over Setsen after that. While It would be fine if you couldn't move from occupied Dornogovi to Il Huree (so moving from inside a ZOC to an unoccupied province outside of it), you should at least be able to go from Dornogovi to that bordering province with the 2,5k stack on it I already occupy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not optimal? No. We're in hotfix territory:



What makes this picture worse is that I was able to cross to the east just fine, but can't come back. I'm being blocked from moving to a province in my own territory with 0 forts belonging to anybody in the conflict bordering any of the provinces. Meanwhile, there are situations where you can run clean over forts in enemy territory.

It's impressive that they're worse than ever.

 

[Korashy]

Not optimal? No. We're in hotfix territory:

What makes this picture worse is that I was able to cross to the east just fine, but can't come back. I'm being blocked from moving to a province in my own territory with 0 forts belonging to anybody in the conflict bordering any of the provinces. Meanwhile, there are situations where you can run clean over forts in enemy territory.

It's impressive that they're worse than ever.

to be honest, it's kind of your fault for not building boats on wheels. Everyone laughed at Ulm, but look who's laughing now.

 

[gia257]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=566511702

This guy claims his 15k army cant move anywhere but Shengyang (the enemy fort), Korchin - cherry, is a vassal of his.He declared war standing there so the game doesnt let him move to his "previous" province because there's none, it didnt happen before because you ended up exiled or in your territory and THEN you moved into enemy zoc, but not now, sorry but did you guys test?

On top of that, the tooltip says "can use transports", but then you can see the map and

1) Chengde is landlocked
2) Beijing's fort protects the sea access

So the game would probably send the army through Ningyuan (under two zoc) then move to Chengde (only under Beijing) and then he would probably not be able to move anywhere but to Beijing.

To add to hilarity, Korchin's troops which were most likely on Chengde, even if the "bug" of not being able to move away from your starting location if under zoc of enemy fort was not there, maybe couldn't move to Chahar and into Manchu's territory because that one is under zoc of Datong, a different fort to Beijing.

 

[Daddl]

"Not optimal" was supposed to be a little euphemism
Now seriously, I see other people have it far worse. Of course that needs to be hotfixed.

Actually, I was fine with how ZOCs worked before. I'm not too sure this overall change, beside these obvious bugs, was really a good idea.

Either ZOCs shouldn't affect occupied or owned territory at all or we need to revert back to the old ZOC version. As I didn't see such issues in the various streams however, I guess this is caused by a last-minute change that wasn't tested properly. I remember that was an issue in previous patches before, but would get fixed immediately.

 

[Vetgirig]

However, now it plays a role from which province an army originates, and that causes kind of dull things.

Its been that way for a long time at least as far back as 1.12 I think. And its not good. Its not how forts should work.

Forts should probably work more like something that slow down enemy movement but still makes it possible to move through the area and at the same time don't hinder movement for the nation controlling the fort.

Movement should be 1/(x+1) where x is added by:

1 if not your core
1 if not controlled
2 per level of fort
1 if enemy fort in adjecant province.

So going in enemy territory where there is a enemy level 1 fort takes 1/(1+1+1+2) and movement is 20% of normal movement speed while the owner moves at 100% through the province.

 

[FitzChiv]

Couple screenshots I took this evening, the system can be a major pain right now.

Until Kazan was taken, all armies, including my vassals, had to march all the way back, around and through Perm (state) to reach Perm (province). I wasn't able to get any armies to go from Viatka to Kudymkar.

Again no army was able to reach Beloozero without going all the way around past Moscow.

It's clear what the problem is in these examples of course, but it feels terrible in practice.

 

[happymix91]

They should've maintained how ZoC works and just made ZoC applied to every provinces adjacent to fort. Inunderstandably broken..

 

[exenter]

This should be fixed ASAP, preferably in the first hotfix.

You should be able to move to all your provinces if the enemy doesn't control all forts in the ZOC. Does enemy forts have an affect on your provinces too? In the last pic it looks like Novgorod is blocking you from going directly to Beloozero.

 

[Will Steel]

These screenshots present some crazy pathfinding. To be honest it is now clear that 'forts affect you in your own lands' thing is not working as intended. Either that or it needs some more work and tweaking to be fine.

Has anyone tried building your own forts at the enemy border, side by side to the enemy fort, to see if it nullifies the effect of the other fort?

Not that I oppose this feature. I actually like how forts influence beyond borders...but they do need more work.

 

[exenter]

Most of the problems shown here can be fixed by simply checking if the province you are trying to move to is adjacent to a province owned and controlled by you or your ally and that it is accessible from the province you are moving from. If it is, you should be able to move there directly. And one other thing, enemy controlled forts should not have an affect on provinces you or your ally control.

I have no idea how the path-finding algorithm works in the game but it shouldn't be hard to implement what I wrote? Maybe it's too expensive to calculate for all provinces?

 

[tahlaskerssen]

Couple screenshots I took this evening, the system can be a major pain right now.

Until Kazan was taken, all armies, including my vassals, had to march all the way back, around and through Perm (state) to reach Perm (province). I wasn't able to get any armies to go from Viatka to Kudymkar.

Again no army was able to reach Beloozero without going all the way around past Moscow.

It's clear what the problem is in these examples of course, but it feels terrible in practice.

Ill explain pic 2. When you entered ZoC of Novgorod pretty sure you entered through Kaluga>Rzhev. Once you are there you can do 3 things. Move to an adjecent province that is in the same ZoC of Novgorod, move to Novgorod or pull back THROUGH KALUGA BECAUSE THATS WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

If you move to another adjacent province that is in the same ZoC, example Tohhok, and you want to leave that ZoC, you have to do it through Rzhev still because you came from there in the first place, you just cant go to Beloozero.

Thats the way forts are supposed to work and they are working, the problem is it isnt logical. Like why on earth an army shouldnt be able to go through Belorozoo?. You should be able to move out of a ZOC no matter what direction and after you leave the provinces flip back inmediately. Also, you should get more penalties for being inside a ZoC, like attrition.

 

[resand]

I don't understand why it was changed to this system. Imo it should be like this:
- When you move into a forts ZoC you can move to the fort or back where you came from.
- If there's more then one fort having a ZoC you can move to either of them, or back where you came from.
- All forts work for friendly or neutral territories, not enemy. So your fort doesn't affect movement through your enemy's land, but does block movement through a 3rd. parties.

Edit:
- If you take a fort, that fort is considered to be yours as far as ZoC goes. Any sieged land is "yours", none sieged are enemy

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I don't understand why it was changed to this system. Imo it should be like this:
- When you move into a forts ZoC you can move to the fort or back where you came from.
- If there's more then one fort having a ZoC you can move to either of them, or back where you came from.
- All forts work for friendly or neutral territories, not enemy. So your fort doesn't affect movement through your enemy's land, but does block movement through a 3rd. parties.

Edit:
- If you take a fort, that fort is considered to be yours as far as ZoC goes. Any sieged land is "yours", none sieged are enemy

This is how I thought it would work and I agree that's how it should work.

 

[tahlaskerssen]

I agree as well, just simple like that.