ZoC is still a mess

[makaramus]

I've never found a good explanation for why this should be possible, except for AI being allowed to ignore ZOC when another valid path exists. My ally is able to walk straight through the fort in Sukhothai, but if I tried to make the same move I would have to go way around.

Regardless of the actual explanation, ZOC is a terrible system and the sooner it is replaced the better. Specifically, any replacement should fit all of these criteria:

• Easy to understand, with no special undocumented rules.
• Never leaves armies trapped, unable to return from whence they came.
• The AI should have to follow the same rules as a human, with no cheating or shortcuts.

Given the horrendous mess we currently have, I don't have much faith in Paradox to be able to create a system like that. But anything would be better than what we have now. Hell, why not make fort rules moddable so players can experiment with their own systems? Then you can just pick the best of what the community comes up with, so you can focus on other important things like fixing the AI or making new content.

where did your ally came from? if hecame from "vie...(cant see remaining of name)" >nan>su...(again ) he can also use same route to turn back this rule is there to prevent units stuck
other than that this screen shot is not explaining situation clear enought there can be many reason sadly I dont know indian flags/colors in eu4

 

[TheMeInTeam]

show me any example and I gonna explain why it is happened I dare you
note: must be after last changes to fort mechanics

You already lost this challenge. From the image I posted on page one, where your statement was objectively wrong (passing ZoC fort to capital fort 1 is not normally a valid move). Not only was it wrong, it's not one of the >3 possible examples to explain the exception.

In the old system a small country’s army would be hunted down and stack-wiped, leaving you to sit back and watch while the enemy besieged your provinces. That’s the reality of it (this was one of the main complaints about the replacement system, BTW, it made forts almost completely useless for small countries).

With the current system the smaller country can hide behind a fort, hire mercs, wait for allies, hit the enemy when they’re vulnerable and recover from battles. It’s a massive improvement over the old system.

While it wasn't just because of forts, it was possible to solo Mamluks as Ethiopia or Najd (I have screenshots from when I did this still). No allies, fabricate on them first, declare, and this was back when Ethiopia started tech 1.



Try soloing Mamluks even with Hejaz now. There are valid reasons to go away from the old setup. "Small nations have more chance now than before" is objectively not one of them, surrounding mechanics have changed enough that small nations are at a disadvantage compared to most of the pre-ZoC patches.

 

[Brynjar]

You already lost this challenge. From the image I posted on page one, where your statement was objectively wrong (passing ZoC fort to capital fort 1 is not normally a valid move). Not only was it wrong, it's not one of the >3 possible examples to explain the exception.

If you are indeed passing (as in from north to south) the fort in Marathwada, I'm struggling to find 3 valid ways this could happen.
I'm pretty sure I don't completely understand the fort rules, there could be several valid reasons which all depends on the previous province:

You could be returning to the previous province, which you may have entered from Bijapur in the first place.
You entered Marathwada from Bijapur -> Pune -> Marathwada which means you can also return to Ahmadnagar
You entered Marathwada from West Berar (Bidar ZoC) -> Marathwada

As you indicated that stopping movement and retrying wouldn't make it a valid move however makes me suspect that you actually entered from North Konkan/Chaul -> Pune -> Marathwada which would make an additional move to Ahmednagar a valid move (when shiftclick pathing), but not if you stop as only pune is remembered as the previous province.

The two of you have however now managed to point out one of the things I think cause a lot of confusion with the fort system, the special case of capital (level 1) forts. If a level 2 fort was in Ahmadnagar (to a combined level 3 fort) the move you are showing would become invalid.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You could be returning to the previous province, which you may have entered from Bijapur in the first place.

This is one is a valid explanation of the move, but since I have the army selected you can see the return province is in Gujurat...or you could if you knew they weren't hostile . Still, this is one of the ways it's possible and can't be ruled out from screenshot alone (your 2nd explanation is an extension of this concept).

3rd explanation is not possible in this case but I can't blame you for not knowing it (I'm not at war with Vijay or Andhra).

As you indicated that stopping movement and retrying wouldn't make it a valid move however makes me suspect that you actually entered from North Konkan/Chaul -> Pune -> Marathwada which would make an additional move to Ahmednagar a valid move (when shiftclick pathing), but not if you stop as only pune is remembered as the previous province.

I hadn't considered this one! It's a 5th possible explanation then!

The two of you have however now managed to point out one of the things I think cause a lot of confusion with the fort system, the special case of capital (level 1) forts. If a level 2 fort was in Ahmadnagar (to a combined level 3 fort) the move you are showing would become invalid.

There are several ways I could still have this exact screenshot with a level 3 fort in the capital too, but it does limit the number of them. Same if there weren't a fort there at all, I could STILL do this in more than one way.

And yes, the purpose of this exercise is to showcase just how convoluted the rules really can be, once you know them. I know them pretty well (not perfectly, but on par with Reman) and I'm not impressed they're left this way :/.

 

[Brynjar]

• Easy to understand, with no special undocumented rules.
• Never leaves armies trapped, unable to return from whence they came.

How much documentation do you need for each special case which is caused by your second requirement? There is very little in the game which is well documented by paradox. Combining those two requirements, while still making sure forts actually serves a purpose isn't necessary easy, or worth the time. Paradox already tried once, but their solution got too much negative feedback from the players during open beta to be implemented in the live version.

Description of the fort system which was suggested: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...evelopment-diary-1st-of-november-2016.979421/
The post by Johan announcing that they wouldn't implement it: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-22nd-of-november-2016.984000/

 

[macd21]

You already lost this challenge. From the image I posted on page one, where your statement was objectively wrong (passing ZoC fort to capital fort 1 is not normally a valid move). Not only was it wrong, it's not one of the >3 possible examples to explain the exception.



While it wasn't just because of forts, it was possible to solo Mamluks as Ethiopia or Najd (I have screenshots from when I did this still). No allies, fabricate on them first, declare, and this was back when Ethiopia started tech 1.



Try soloing Mamluks even with Hejaz now. There are valid reasons to go away from the old setup. "Small nations have more chance now than before" is objectively not one of them, surrounding mechanics have changed enough that small nations are at a disadvantage compared to most of the pre-ZoC patches.

Yes, a small nation could get lucky and take down a larger one - but it was far more likely they’d get stack wiped and crushed. And the fact that a small nation could get lucky and take down a larger one was another strike against the old system. With ZoC taking down a superior enemy requires skill, not luck.

 

[Brynjar]

3rd explanation is not possible in this case but I can't blame you for not knowing it (I'm not at war with Vijay or Andhra).

Military access from your neighbours would be sufficient in all the cases I think, and I think you are mixing West Berar or Bidar (both owned by Ahmednagar) with some other province (or did you mean my 2nd point?). For #3 to be possible you would enter from Mahaedo/East Berar which looks like they are both owned by Bengal.

 

[gia257]

by the end of the year paradox opened a programmer position, the test seemed to be about pathfinding, so _maybe_ there will be some zoc change? as zoc is reliant on pathfinding for its implementation

How much documentation do you need for each special case which is caused by your second requirement? There is very little in the game which is well documented by paradox. Combining those two requirements, while still making sure forts actually serves a purpose isn't necessary easy, or worth the time. Paradox already tried once, but their solution got too much negative feedback from the players during open beta to be implemented in the live version.

Description of the fort system which was suggested: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...evelopment-diary-1st-of-november-2016.979421/
The post by Johan announcing that they wouldn't implement it: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...velopment-diary-22nd-of-november-2016.984000/

i think the very simple, if theres an enemy controlled fort, you cant cross to the other side, would work, wouldnt it?

 

[Dominion]

Most of the backlash came from the AIs fortspam, but now that we have Napoleonic warfare and artillery barrage that argument is out the window.

They should try again.

 

[macd21]

i think the very simple, if theres an enemy controlled fort, you cant cross to the other side, would work, wouldnt it?

You mean without ZoC? No, that ends up rendering forts nearly useless, as you'd have to fortify your entire border, only to be undone with the fall of a single fort in the chain. So you have to make forts much cheaper to be worth it, and then you end up with forts in almost every province - which results in warfare being an intensely dull grind, as you spend forever taking them down. It's simply boring as hell.

Combining forts with ZoC nets you a balance where they can be expensive but important enough to be worth it, while being too expensive to have in every province. Each war becomes about taking a handful of critical forts, without dragging on to long.

 

[gia257]

You mean without ZoC? No, that ends up rendering forts nearly useless, as you'd have to fortify your entire border, only to be undone with the fall of a single fort in the chain. So you have to make forts much cheaper to be worth it, and then you end up with forts in almost every province - which results in warfare being an intensely dull grind, as you spend forever taking them down. It's simply boring as hell.

Combining forts with ZoC nets you a balance where they can be expensive but important enough to be worth it, while being too expensive to have in every province. Each war becomes about taking a handful of critical forts, without dragging on to long.

I dont know what you are talking about sorry, what i posted was the "zoc documentation"

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, a small nation could get lucky and take down a larger one - but it was far more likely they’d get stack wiped and crushed. And the fact that a small nation could get lucky and take down a larger one was another strike against the old system. With ZoC taking down a superior enemy requires skill, not luck.

1. Roll back to an early patch and try to win that way by luck. You won't.
2. However, if you know how to work the mechanics of the time, you can do it reproducibly.

Let's not throw an arbitrary luck designation into this discussion to confuse things. It's not about luck on either side.

Military access from your neighbours would be sufficient in all the cases I think, and I think you are mixing West Berar or Bidar (both owned by Ahmednagar) with some other province (or did you mean my 2nd point?). For #3 to be possible you would enter from Mahaedo/East Berar which looks like they are both owned by Bengal.

Ah ok. I did just peace out with Bengal as of that picture. It's hard to 100% think of this in the shoes of a neutral observer.

 

[gia257]

even if capital fort is at level 1(wich means not built extra fort) you can still reach it to siege because of same rules! yes its not causing ZoC but its still effected by rule of "you can allways reach forts"
here... I am still open for challange

no level 1 forts dont count for that, you cant access a capital if it is protected by a fort and the capital doesnt have a fort, try it with an ai

 

[makaramus]

no level 1 forts dont count for that, you cant access a capital if it is protected by a fort and the capital doesnt have a fort, try it with an ai

Hmm... everyday you learn someting then

still I am sure there is a reason of it trouble is picture only showing 1 moment and not all movements... I dont know if that fort was disabled or someting I dont know where troops came from etc...

 

[atwix]

There are very, very few players on this board or elsewhere that could easily list 3+ ways this happens. I'm not sure the devs can. This has been a convoluted system in every iteration since it was implemented years ago and is easily one of the most consistently damaging mechanics to the game.

this is what many people here don't get..

No matter IF the player's don't get the rules, and no matter IF the AI does a valid move or not when "dodging" ZoC....

Small part of the community here might actually rage and quit playing this game over counterintuitive rules.

Try playing in the HRE, and LOSE a critical fight because AI does a move that seems illogical and "cheating" regarding zone of control and military access.

Some might say "sod this buggy mess" and leave game, just because they "think" it's buggy.

regardless if it's buggy or not, you can't deny that posts regarding "ai did this and why?" regarding zoc pop up regurarly.

Tl, dr: i get the feeling many people here dig in trenches and defend/attack each other's examples and roll in the hay over one another figuring out what counterintuitive rule AI uses to avoid forts.... while completely overlooking the reason WHY people post threads like this.

show me any example and I gonna explain why it is happened I dare you
note: must be after last changes to fort mechanics

see above.

I've never found a good explanation for why this should be possible, except for AI being allowed to ignore ZOC when another valid path exists. My ally is able to walk straight through the fort in Sukhothai, but if I tried to make the same move I would have to go way around.

i also have seen this. AI is ATTACHED, I walk with them from province A to B, only to see them DETACH in province B and see AI walk through a fort where I can't.

You can explain that in 15 different ways if you want, it just.... does NOT make sense if you see it happen.

Many players here know the game mechanics really well, but i'm one of many that play this game on gut feeling, without knowing all the hidden mechanics/rules/formulae on this and that really well. And I also don't read patch notes too well.

And I really roll my eyes sometimes when I see wonky stuff, and still rage if I see AI walk through 2 occupied forts far away from any border and attack me on a capital after walking *over* said occupied fort (hence samarkand example).

This should just be flat out impossible, because NO player here likes to compute xx reasons why AI can make a (valid) move like that.

A fort is a god**** FORT, and AI or the player shouldn't be able to dodge it, no matter if its near a border, a neutral nation, or whatever.

Anyone defending that they should be able to, just doesn't get why people keep posting threads like this

 

[makaramus]

this is what many people here don't get..

No matter IF the player's don't get the rules, and no matter IF the AI does a valid move or not when "dodging" ZoC....

Small part of the community here might actually rage and quit playing this game over counterintuitive rules.

Try playing in the HRE, and LOSE a critical fight because AI does a move that seems illogical and "cheating" regarding zone of control and military access.

Some might say "sod this buggy mess" and leave game, just because they "think" it's buggy.

regardless if it's buggy or not, you can't deny that posts regarding "ai did this and why?" regarding zoc pop up regurarly.

Tl, dr: i get the feeling many people here dig in trenches and defend/attack each other's examples and roll in the hay over one another figuring out what counterintuitive rule AI uses to avoid forts.... while completely overlooking the reason WHY people post threads like this.



see above.



i also have seen this. AI is ATTACHED, I walk with them from province A to B, only to see them DETACH in province B and see AI walk through a fort where I can't.

You can explain that in 15 different ways if you want, it just.... does NOT make sense if you see it happen.

Many players here know the game mechanics really well, but i'm one of many that play this game on gut feeling, without knowing all the hidden mechanics/rules/formulae on this and that really well. And I also don't read patch notes too well.

And I really roll my eyes sometimes when I see wonky stuff, and still rage if I see AI walk through 2 occupied forts far away from any border and attack me on a capital after walking *over* said occupied fort (hence samarkand example).

This should just be flat out impossible, because NO player here likes to compute xx reasons why AI can make a (valid) move like that.

A fort is a god**** FORT, and AI or the player shouldn't be able to dodge it, no matter if its near a border, a neutral nation, or whatever.

Anyone defending that they should be able to, just doesn't get why people keep posting threads like this

dude... we are not saying "system is perfect and what this game need"
we saying "this is best we got until now and working as intented" -_- if you can create better set of rules where working with MANY diffrent situation perfectly without making your troops stuck for some random situation go on say it but until that this is what we have
no old system is not gonna come back its not an option by the way

 

[bly08]

Yes, though missing a few special cases:





Explain the picture above. Better yet, if you think the rules *aren't* terrible...go ahead and list off all the ways this move (done by player in this case) is allowed by the game offhand, as well as under which conditions it is not.



Using the same kind of BS interactions that lead to things like above, except unlike us the AI constantly calculates pathing and so can "see" valid moves that have no apparent reason to be valid.

My extremely rough and most likely wrong guess is that you had a smaller stack enter from Khandesh to Marathwada, and a bigger stack enter from Desh or Bijapur. I'm guessing the bigger stack can siege either Marathwada or the capital fort if their return province is Pune, or if the capital does not have an extra fort then you could walk straight through and have their return province be the capital. If you then combine both stacks at Marathwada it would reset the return province to the capital. Or something along those lines.

That or the Marathwada fort was mothballed so you could walk straight through.

Is your tooltip covering another fort?

 

[gia257]

dude... we are not saying "system is perfect and what this game need"
we saying "this is best we got until now and working as intented" -_- if you can create better set of rules where working with MANY diffrent situation perfectly without making your troops stuck for some random situation go on say it but until that this is what we have
no old system is not gonna come back its not an option by the way

its very easy to say that any random unexpected behavior of weird rules was intended if it isnt modified though, its not a bug its a feature!

 

[macd21]

What zoc documentation?

this is what many people here don't get..

No matter IF the player's don't get the rules, and no matter IF the AI does a valid move or not when "dodging" ZoC....

Small part of the community here might actually rage and quit playing this game over counterintuitive rules.

Try playing in the HRE, and LOSE a critical fight because AI does a move that seems illogical and "cheating" regarding zone of control and military access.

Some might say "sod this buggy mess" and leave game, just because they "think" it's buggy.

regardless if it's buggy or not, you can't deny that posts regarding "ai did this and why?" regarding zoc pop up regurarly.

Tl, dr: i get the feeling many people here dig in trenches and defend/attack each other's examples and roll in the hay over one another figuring out what counterintuitive rule AI uses to avoid forts.... while completely overlooking the reason WHY people post threads like this.



see above.



i also have seen this. AI is ATTACHED, I walk with them from province A to B, only to see them DETACH in province B and see AI walk through a fort where I can't.

You can explain that in 15 different ways if you want, it just.... does NOT make sense if you see it happen.

Many players here know the game mechanics really well, but i'm one of many that play this game on gut feeling, without knowing all the hidden mechanics/rules/formulae on this and that really well. And I also don't read patch notes too well.

And I really roll my eyes sometimes when I see wonky stuff, and still rage if I see AI walk through 2 occupied forts far away from any border and attack me on a capital after walking *over* said occupied fort (hence samarkand example).

This should just be flat out impossible, because NO player here likes to compute xx reasons why AI can make a (valid) move like that.

A fort is a god**** FORT, and AI or the player shouldn't be able to dodge it, no matter if its near a border, a neutral nation, or whatever.

Anyone defending that they should be able to, just doesn't get why people keep posting threads like this

Yes, ideally we’d have a nice, simple system that worked like this. But Paradox have been trying to come up with just that for years and the current system is still the best they could come up with.

 

[Rocketskates]

it happens once and then you know and you figure it out, yea i built a maginot line first aswell then lo and behold if you search for it ppl make suggestions how to build (or rather not build at all and just choose carefully which one to keep) forts