ZoC is still a mess

[atwix]

That used to be the case, but was changed a few patches back.

as far as i know, paradox denied that the 'rule' was even there.

can anyone give a source for the 'ai can take long way around so they can take shortcut" got fixed?

I still see it happen alot; ai just coming in from south on occupied fort, only to leave occupied fort north side..

then people will say "it's due to something else"

no matter what 'rule' allows this, its just a mess of a ZoC if it is allowed.

good example would be samarkand and fort south of it. ai walks from south on occupied fort, and then can attack you in samarkand and just bypass your occupied fort...

 

[makaramus]

as far as i know, paradox denied that the 'rule' was even there.

can anyone give a source for the 'ai can take long way around so they can take shortcut" got fixed?

I still see it happen alot; ai just coming in from south on occupied fort, only to leave occupied fort north side..

then people will say "it's due to something else"

no matter what 'rule' allows this, its just a mess of a ZoC if it is allowed.

good example would be samarkand and fort south of it. ai walks from south on occupied fort, and then can attack you in samarkand and just bypass your occupied fort...

you are right but since paradox announced its removed there is no situation shared by players here that proving ai using ZoC in a way player cant so...

 

[atwix]

a mess is still a mess, even if player can do the same mess.

the entire zoc system has been counter intuitive ever since wiz trampled with it around common sense patch 1.12 dlc.

 

[makaramus]

a mess is still a mess, even if player can do the same mess.

the entire zoc system has been counter intuitive ever since wiz trampled with it around common sense patch 1.12 dlc.

aaand?

 

[Admiral Fischer]

I'm not sure if they actually managed to fix the bug. The 1.24 patchlog I just mentioned reads:

"Identified where approximately in code AI fort ZoC ignore bug comes from and tried to suppress it."

So they 'tried', but apparently were not confident enough to say they at last 'fixed' the bug.

 

[Brynjar]

I'm not sure if they actually managed to fix the bug. The 1.24 patchlog I just mentioned reads:



So they 'tried', but apparently were not confident enough to say they at last 'fixed' the bug.

About one third of the AI changes in the 1.24 changelog wasn't actually implemented, this could be one of them. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...of-december-2017.1060110/page-4#post-23608120

 

[VivaStPauli]

a mess is still a mess, even if player can do the same mess.

the entire zoc system has been counter intuitive ever since wiz trampled with it around common sense patch 1.12 dlc.

aaand?

Here's the thing Makaramus, up until this point this discussion was atleast semi-constructive. But if you're going to resort to child-logic and start saying "aaand?" or "I know you are, but what am I?" and so on instead of giving proper answers you'll just look like someone that will blindly defend the ZoC-system and maybe anything else that Paradox does without much thought or reasoning behind it.

Here's my understanding of what your position is (and I am paraphrasing here): "The AI can move through ZoC in ways that seem weird / counterintuitive BUT so can the player, this means that the system is working as intended and nothing needs to be done about it."

Is that a fair assessment of what you're saying here?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The old system was boring, lacked depth and made it more difficult for small countries to stand up to large ones. The new system is a massive improvement.

It was easier to defeat large nations with small ones under 1.6 rules than it is in 1.24 rules. Forts aren't the only reason, but that's the reality of it.

aaand?

And broken systems that even players defending it don't actually understand should be fixed. You weren't just a little off in explaining my example, your explanation was actually impossible to the screenshot presented. There are > 3 ways to make the way my troops ignored ZoC there possible, and none of them are your example.

There are very, very few players on this board or elsewhere that could easily list 3+ ways this happens. I'm not sure the devs can. This has been a convoluted system in every iteration since it was implemented years ago and is easily one of the most consistently damaging mechanics to the game.

that will blindly defend the ZoC

To be fair it'd be very hard to look at the screenshot I put on page one and defend it in any capacity without doing so blindly :/.

 

[Nitte Cera]

As far as I know, if the AI has an alternative path, no matter how long it is, it can ignore ZoC. For instance, let's say an AI wants to go from Edirne to Anatolia where it would normally not be able to pass but has an alternative path all around the Black Sea then it can ignore it and cross the strait.

Is the youtuber Reman's Paradox?

 

[Canute VII]

ZoC is just a failed try to put in sort of a supply System, when there are much better ways to do it. Other games do it. But oh yeah lets not do what other games are successfully doing, lets do something special and worthy of EUIV game designers' grandeur. Lets not admit failure.

 

[makaramus]

Here's the thing Makaramus, up until this point this discussion was atleast semi-constructive. But if you're going to resort to child-logic and start saying "aaand?" or "I know you are, but what am I?" and so on instead of giving proper answers you'll just look like someone that will blindly defend the ZoC-system and maybe anything else that Paradox does without much thought or reasoning behind it.

Here's my understanding of what your position is (and I am paraphrasing here): "The AI can move through ZoC in ways that seem weird / counterintuitive BUT so can the player, this means that the system is working as intended and nothing needs to be done about it."

Is that a fair assessment of what you're saying here?

I was seriusly asking what he mean -_-

It was easier to defeat large nations with small ones under 1.6 rules than it is in 1.24 rules. Forts aren't the only reason, but that's the reality of it.



And broken systems that even players defending it don't actually understand should be fixed. You weren't just a little off in explaining my example, your explanation was actually impossible to the screenshot presented. There are > 3 ways to make the way my troops ignored ZoC there possible, and none of them are your example.

There are very, very few players on this board or elsewhere that could easily list 3+ ways this happens. I'm not sure the devs can. This has been a convoluted system in every iteration since it was implemented years ago and is easily one of the most consistently damaging mechanics to the game.



To be fair it'd be very hard to look at the screenshot I put on page one and defend it in any capacity without doing so blindly :/.

actually when you understand very basic rules you can understand which forts can be passed and wich ports are not. they are not hard to understand trouble is... like trade they are not well explained in game :/

 

[hrimhari]

Here's one thing still in the game that I'm pretty sure is responsible for most fort bugs: armies will continue along a pre-set path even if forts are built/un-mothballed/become hostile as they walk.

Say, you have a lot of mothballed forts. You declare war. Your forts unmothball, but enemy AI has already set their path. In that case, they can avoid all of your previously-mothballed forts (unless you make them change path).

This isn't an AI bug, it also works for the player. Try it: find someone with mothballed forts, declare war. On the first day, before their forts wake up, you can walk anywhere and will continue to do so after they activate forts.

Edit to add: if the AI is already walking past your territory when you declare (or vice versa), day they're at war with someone opposite you and travelling over your land to get there, then same rules apply. Forts don't block movement that was set while the forts weren't hostile.

 

[raistlin_wizard]

ZoC is just a failed try to put in sort of a supply System, when there are much better ways to do it. Other games do it. But oh yeah lets not do what other games are successfully doing, lets do something special and worthy of EUIV game designers' grandeur. Lets not admit failure.

Just one word: sailors.

 

[Canute VII]

Just one word: sailors.

one word is a couple of sentences short of intellegible, at least for me ...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

actually when you understand very basic rules you can understand which forts can be passed and wich ports are not. they are not hard to understand trouble is... like trade they are not well explained in game :/

You don't understand them, which is why you can't tell me more than 3 ways my move is valid while also explaining why it normally isn't. It is likely very few people can do this, which undermines the assertion that they are "not hard to understand".

 

[Shadowstrike]

Back when the ZoC system came out, there were a lot of alternate proposals for fort movement rules that were more clear. One idea which would really make the ZoC system crystal clear that stuck in my mind was that fort ZoC rules shouldn't be dependent on the prior history of where a unit came from. That is to say, each individual move should be ruled as valid or invalid, simply based on the current arrangement of forts, and the unit's current position and destination, without regard to where the unit had been before or how it got there.

You can layer on whatever implementation of ZoC that follows from there, but that idea would really solve the "ZoC doesn't make sense" issue.

 

[makaramus]

You don't understand them, which is why you can't tell me more than 3 ways my move is valid while also explaining why it normally isn't. It is likely very few people can do this, which undermines the assertion that they are "not hard to understand".

show me any example and I gonna explain why it is happened I dare you
note: must be after last changes to fort mechanics

 

[macd21]

It was easier to defeat large nations with small ones under 1.6 rules than it is in 1.24 rules. Forts aren't the only reason, but that's the reality of it.

In the old system a small country’s army would be hunted down and stack-wiped, leaving you to sit back and watch while the enemy besieged your provinces. That’s the reality of it (this was one of the main complaints about the replacement system, BTW, it made forts almost completely useless for small countries).

With the current system the smaller country can hide behind a fort, hire mercs, wait for allies, hit the enemy when they’re vulnerable and recover from battles. It’s a massive improvement over the old system.

 

[Canute VII]

In the old system a small country’s army would be hunted down and stack-wiped, leaving you to sit back and watch while the enemy besieged your provinces. That’s the reality of it (this was one of the main complaints about the replacement system, BTW, it made forts almost completely useless for small countries).

With the current system the smaller country can hide behind a fort, hire mercs, wait for allies, hit the enemy when they’re vulnerable and recover from battles. It’s a massive improvement over the old system.

No changes for OPMs, though

 

[Splax77]

I've never found a good explanation for why this should be possible, except for AI being allowed to ignore ZOC when another valid path exists. My ally is able to walk straight through the fort in Sukhothai, but if I tried to make the same move I would have to go way around.

Regardless of the actual explanation, ZOC is a terrible system and the sooner it is replaced the better. Specifically, any replacement should fit all of these criteria:

• Easy to understand, with no special undocumented rules.
• Never leaves armies trapped, unable to return from whence they came.
• The AI should have to follow the same rules as a human, with no cheating or shortcuts.

Given the horrendous mess we currently have, I don't have much faith in Paradox to be able to create a system like that. But anything would be better than what we have now. Hell, why not make fort rules moddable so players can experiment with their own systems? Then you can just pick the best of what the community comes up with, so you can focus on other important things like fixing the AI or making new content.