ZoC is still a mess

[Taelyn]

After many years playing this game with the ZoC system, I still don't understand it.

1) I still have troops able to enter territory and are then trapped, unable to return. This seems easy to fix. If the return path is illegal, then the game should not allow the initial trip.

2) As Arabia, I have a fort in Halab. Ottoman troops move along the coast right past it. How? Forts never seem to block the AI, is it just cheating or are there rules I don't know?

ZoC remains a mess even after years. Can we just acknowledge there needs to be a better system?

 

[mruuh]

I do not have anything constructive to add here, I just like how the last part of your signature (General Tacticus on winning a siege) is spot on topic for this thread.

 

[raistlin_wizard]

As far as I know, if the AI has an alternative path, no matter how long it is, it can ignore ZoC. For instance, let's say an AI wants to go from Edirne to Anatolia where it would normally not be able to pass but has an alternative path all around the Black Sea then it can ignore it and cross the strait.

 

[Taelyn]

If you have a big empire, there's always a route somewhere. That system really breaks down for late game.

 

[macd21]

As far as I know, if the AI has an alternative path, no matter how long it is, it can ignore ZoC. For instance, let's say an AI wants to go from Edirne to Anatolia where it would normally not be able to pass but has an alternative path all around the Black Sea then it can ignore it and cross the strait.

That used to be the case, but was changed a few patches back.

 

[Taelyn]

How does the Ai bypass forts then?

 

[macd21]

It depends. The rules for ZoC are very complex. The AI doesn’t get any special exemptions any more (outside of bugs). There’s a YouTube video that goes through everything, but I can’t remember who made it.

 

[makaramus]

send
a
screen shot
Usually many claim that saying ZoC not working or working terrible had a very good and fair explain. but without any visual its extremly hard to tell what is trouble

 

[Sharples88]

As I have explained in most of the problems time and time again... special rules are what cause really confusing ZOC problems. Like having a fort on a border province and you can just walk right through it because of special rules is complete nonsense.

Don't expect any major changes to ZOC soon. I've already suggested this like what... five times in a bunch of separate threads complaining about fort problems.

 

[Kitsuka]

Is the YouTube channel Reman's Paradox still correct with its evaluation of the actual fort rules?

 

[jdavis86]

Yeah it gets complex. Many issues come from overlapping zones of control.

So you can pass through one fort, and then end up in another nearby fort's ZoC. I'd guess this is what happened to OP.

This also occurs when you siege one fort down, only to be stuck in another fort's ZoC.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is the YouTube channel Reman's Paradox still correct with its evaluation of the actual fort rules?

Yes, though missing a few special cases:

Usually many claim that saying ZoC not working or working terrible had a very good and fair explain. but without any visual its extremly hard to tell what is trouble

Explain the picture above. Better yet, if you think the rules *aren't* terrible...go ahead and list off all the ways this move (done by player in this case) is allowed by the game offhand, as well as under which conditions it is not.

How does the Ai bypass forts then?

Using the same kind of BS interactions that lead to things like above, except unlike us the AI constantly calculates pathing and so can "see" valid moves that have no apparent reason to be valid.

 

[macd21]

As I have explained in most of the problems time and time again... special rules are what cause really confusing ZOC problems. Like having a fort on a border province and you can just walk right through it because of special rules is complete nonsense.

Don't expect any major changes to ZOC soon. I've already suggested this like what... five times in a bunch of separate threads complaining about fort problems.

There are no simple solutions to the ZoC problems. The reason there’s special rules is because without them you end up with worse problems.

 

[macd21]

send
a
screen shot
Usually many claim that saying ZoC not working or working terrible had a very good and fair explain. but without any visual its extremly hard to tell what is trouble

Yeah this. Without more information we can’t tell what might be happening.

 

[gia257]

huh, there always is a simple solution, if zoc is complex and doesnt work, dont use zoc, use something else

 

[TheMeInTeam]

huh, there always is a simple solution, if zoc is complex and doesnt work, dont use zoc, use something else

It's almost like they had a different model before, and players could actually understand the rules for it...hmm...maybe I'm just getting old but I seem to remember something like that, and it being scrapped before its replacement was finished...

 

[gia257]

i prefer the idea of forts handling movement, not ol'every province has a fort, but the algorithm used n the implementation, ew, wonder what limitation makes them stick to it

simply, we dont look at things we dont charge for (only bother about next dlc), lack of imagination? or something actually technical I cant grasp from my point of ignorance on their code, because you can turn forts off so their pathing engine has to allow updates, so how come once you capture a fort you get problems? there are algorithms that would allow yout to play if the pathing is updated, at the same time, once you queue a move it stays valid even if you turn the fort on, so their pathing engine must not like updating a lot

so are the problems when you capture an overlapping fort because the pathing shouldnt be updated too often and flipping a fort manually is on ly allowed because it is a very rare case? or because the dev in charge forgot about it and nobody was allowed to work on it because it is not dlc related?

 

[VivaStPauli]

The AI doesn’t get any special exemptions any more (outside of bugs).

If that is the case then explain how the Ottomans 80k stack just walked from point A to point B through my fort in Trebizond (and another 10k is in the process of doing the same thing). Because I can guarantee you that there is no way a human player would be able to just blatantly ignore that fort and walk on by while the garrison cheers them on and wishes them a happy journey.

And while we're on the topic of "any special exemptions" for the AI, it seems to me (and please do correct me if I'm wrong because I'm trying to figure out how this insanity works) that if the player takes an enemy AI keep that this keep then doesn't project any ZoC to block the enemy. Whereas if the AI takes one of the players keeps it does project a ZoC.

It's almost as if, and I'll give Pdx the benefit of the doubt and say that this is not the case, this whole thing with forts and ZoC was designed to confuse and annoy the players with rules that half the time dont even seem to make sense and with outcomes that are too hard to predict.

Edit: Infact the state that the "fort system" is in at the moment breaks any sense of immersion and instead of being a tool to be used it feels more like an annoyance that you have to learn to play around.

And no... making the upkeep cheaper or making them give you Army Tradition isn't going to fix the underlying issues with the system.

 

[makaramus]

Yes, though missing a few special cases:





Explain the picture above. Better yet, if you think the rules *aren't* terrible...go ahead and list off all the ways this move (done by player in this case) is allowed by the game offhand, as well as under which conditions it is not.



Using the same kind of BS interactions that lead to things like above, except unlike us the AI constantly calculates pathing and so can "see" valid moves that have no apparent reason to be valid.

this? extremly simple:You can allways reach to nearby fort. this means if you build fort in every single province then enemy will travel on your entire army without trouble
this is same for you! open cheats give yourself max amount of money. build many forts as you can and switch nation and dow target with full forts. you will see that you can walk on forts with ease

 

[makaramus]

View attachment 326791

If that is the case then explain how the Ottomans 80k stack just walked from point A to point B through my fort in Trebizond (and another 10k is in the process of doing the same thing). Because I can guarantee you that there is no way a human player would be able to just blatantly ignore that fort and walk on by while the garrison cheers them on and wishes them a happy journey.

And while we're on the topic of "any special exemptions" for the AI, it seems to me (and please do correct me if I'm wrong because I'm trying to figure out how this insanity works) that if the player takes an enemy AI keep that this keep then doesn't project any ZoC to block the enemy. Whereas if the AI takes one of the players keeps it does project a ZoC.

It's almost as if, and I'll give Pdx the benefit of the doubt and say that this is not the case, this whole thing with forts and ZoC was designed to confuse and annoy the players with rules that half the time dont even seem to make sense and with outcomes that are too hard to predict.

Edit: Infact the state that the "fort system" is in at the moment breaks any sense of immersion and instead of being a tool to be used it feels more like an annoyance that you have to learn to play around.

And no... making the upkeep cheaper or making them give you Army Tradition isn't going to fix the underlying issues with the system.

as much as you can allways walk between forts you can also allways reach to friendly province even if you are in ZoC
in screen shot you sent Ottoman can't reach from point B to A ever! BUT! they can reach point from A to B because your fort is near their zone
remove trabzon and erzincan forts and replace them with erzurum and there will be no problem

Again: this happened because you can reach to friendly provinces this applies to player too