Zionism

[unmerged(162506)]

Will Zionism in some form or another be represented in Vic 2? One cool idea would be for a great power to designate a Jewish homeland either in Palestine or elsewhere (I know one idea floated around the early 20th century was Madagascar), and that nation would get a huuuge bonus to Jewish immigration. Just a playful thought

 

[unmerged(72435)]

sounds like a fun event

 

[Pitt The Elder]

Will Zionism in some form or another be represented in Vic 2? One cool idea would be for a great power to designate a Jewish homeland either in Palestine or elsewhere (I know one idea floated around the early 20th century was Madagascar), and that nation would get a huuuge bonus to Jewish immigration. Just a playful thought

While I do like the idea, this is one that must be tread about carefully.

The Madagascar Plan, being most truly considered by, is strongly associated with Nazi Germany. While we shouldn't stick our heads in the sand over the issue (and I personally think Madagascar looks a darn sight better than what wound up happening), it needs to be handled . . . very precisely.

 

[unmerged(72435)]

wait I changed my mind.
The new idea in the victoria is more freedom to change stuff.
So it would probably be a generic "[culture] wants to leave to its homeland of [province]"
:/

 

[Minchandre]

While I do like the idea, this is one that must be tread about carefully.

The Madagascar Plan, being most truly considered by, is strongly associated with Nazi Germany. While we shouldn't stick our heads in the sand over the issue (and I personally think Madagascar looks a darn sight better than what wound up happening), it needs to be handled . . . very precisely.

I'm sure that the Malagasy (more numerous by far than the Arabs of Palestine) would have been super happy to have another European power come in. The result would actually have been an apartheid state, in all likelihood. Honestly, you're probably right, in that the Malagasy wouldn't have the Arab League constantly reminding everyone of their their status, but that's another thread.

Anyway, I'm already planning a Zionism mod, as I strongly suspect it won't be included in the main game - not important enough on the world level.

 

[Celdur]

I think to honor the jewish historical tenacity, if you have jewish inmigrants they should assimilated into your state culture but able to keep their religion, it won't affect the game in any way and it would be cool historical flavor. Also, i think the jewish comunity is big enough (market wise) to be awared said "flavour"

 

[Fiyenyaa]

I think to honor the jewish historical tenacity, if you have jewish inmigrants they should assimilated into your state culture but able to keep their religion, it won't affect the game in any way and it would be cool historical flavor. Also, i think the jewish comunity is big enough (market wise) to be awared said "flavour"

And it only makes sense, too. Although conversion happened to some extent, most Jews kept their religion within the timescale of this game.

Perhaps there could be some sort of event or series of events that could lead to a Jewish state if those involved co-operated (or were forced to co-operate). This could lead to a Jewish State in the Levant, or perhaps something closer to The British Uganda Programme. A Jewish state in a different location to real life could very interesting indeed.

 

[OHgamer]

Sounds like something better suited for a mod methinks. Way too many "what-ifs" can happen during the course of the game to make any vanilla-included event chain not have all that much sense without a hell of a lot of trussing of player actions to ensure "historical" outcomes after 50-70 years of gameplay.

- Russia and other European nations may democratize earlier, no pogroms as Jews are accorded full citizenship
- Ottoman Empire may cure its sick man status, and thus not provide land even grudgingly for such colonization schemes
- America might remain much more attractive an emigration destination (which it actually was compared to the schemes to settle Palestine or some African site until WWI and the 1920s immigration law changes shut the doors to most immigration).

and a whole host of other potentialities.

 

[Surgünoglu]

I think that the Ottomans, who were lobbied, or the British either should be able to have a decision (like the historical White Paper in the UK's case) to allow a Jewish homeland to be declared. It may be potentially destabilizing, but I'd love to see it.

 

[unmerged(91061)]

Ideally this would be modelled via the system of migration without need for events or decisions. Wait until the Migration DD comes out.
That said, I can't see how things like "historical homeland" would factor into PoP's migration decision making. It would be like the Freed Slaves after the American Civil War all migrating back to their historical african lands. Sort of.

 

[unmerged(63310)]

I just started reading a book called "The Yiddish Policemen's Union" and imagines Zionism in Alaska... pretty funny result if Vicky 2 cures the migration problem to Alaska only to have an event/decision where you can found a Jewish state there.

 

[wilcoxchar]

It could be handled with a one-time decision that declares a region of the country that hasn't been granted statehood a Jewish homeland. It would increase the migration factor for Jewish religion POPs to that region and after it's enacted. After it's enacted, the likelihood for other countries to create declare Jewish homelands in their countries is greatly lowered so most games only have one.

It would be interesting to be able to do that with other minor religions, like the Mormons in Utah if the Church of the Latter Day Saints is represented in the game.

 

[Minchandre]

I would do it (in a mod, of course) by happening Zionism slowly come into the Jewish conscience starting in the 1850s, maybe as an Issue or something. Around the 1880s, you'd see migration to Palestine of Jewish pops from both liberral nations, and nations that aren't so great to the Jews. Ideally, some sort of pogrom system can be implemented for the less liberal nations, which will increase migration when triggered. Eventually, around the turn of the century, the World Zionist Congress will happen, and the Jews will start shopping around the Great Powers for someone to support them. If someone (not necessarily the owner of Palestine!) offers the region to them, there'll be a surge in immigration from the liberal nations for a couple years. If Palestine was offered by the owner of the region, this will taper off a bit, but stay pretty strong for a while. If Palestine was offered by a non-owner, Jews in that country will start agitating for a war of conquest. Either way, immigration by Jews will be matched by immigration by Arabs in Syria, Iraq, and Egypt.

A non-Palestine region could also be offered, though this would have to be an owned region, and the Congress is much less likely to go ahead, unless the pogroms are really bad. Something similar will occur, with similar native immigration where applicable.

Either way, the Jews (both there and abroad) will eventually agitate for independence, depending on how well they've been treated.

 

[unmerged(162506)]

I strongly believe this decision should not be only open to the UK or Ottomans, and not to Palestine either. Imperial Germany or even Japan (Who tried unsuccessfully to encourage Jewish migration to Manchukuo) could just have easily made a similar decision, and not necessarily to Palestine. Chiam Weizmann vehemently opposed setting up Israel elsewhere, but other Jewish leaders were open to areas like those mentioned above.

 

[Tovarits]

I'd like to play Israel in 1800's! I think that zionism would be good idea. I'd like to make Jewish_supremacy_world_power-state. Like nazis and commies are always frighting.

 

[Minchandre]

I strongly believe this decision should not be only open to the UK or Ottomans, and not to Palestine either. Imperial Germany or even Japan (Who tried unsuccessfully to encourage Jewish migration to Manchukuo) could just have easily made a similar decision, and not necessarily to Palestine. Chiam Weizmann vehemently opposed setting up Israel elsewhere, but other Jewish leaders were open to areas like those mentioned above.

Definitely, though I would like to note the Manchukuo thing was in WWII, and was a direct response to Nazi persecution of Jews, so probably won't show up. Generally, the Japanese, like most other east Asian societies, were almost completely ignorant of Jews.

 

[Surgünoglu]

Ideally this would be modelled via the system of migration without need for events or decisions. Wait until the Migration DD comes out.
That said, I can't see how things like "historical homeland" would factor into PoP's migration decision making. It would be like the Freed Slaves after the American Civil War all migrating back to their historical african lands. Sort of.

What, you mean like Liberia and Garveyism? Why not?

To me, it ought to be a decision because Liberia--and Israel--weren't just about centuries-old ambitions. They were the result of very real movements of recent history and, then, policy decisions like the White Paper I mentioned that recognized that. Governments made those decisions. So should players.

And most of the proposed Jewish homelands, like the Soviet one in Siberia, or the Nazis' or Japanese, were absolute farces, in most cases intended to distract from very real oppression by those forces. Let's make it in Israel/Palestine, whoever holds it. I don't think there is any other alternative that would have worked. There were two realistic Jewish homelands during the period: the USA and Ottoman/British Palestine.

But in any case, I'm not holding my breath. I'd just love to see it.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Sounds really nice, but I don't think they will include a "Pogrom system" in Vic2. The potential for abuse is just too high. We don't want to see AARs where players play to get their country Judenfrei as quickly as possible... I want to be able to buy this game in Germany, too!! o

 

[Brownbeard]

I'd prefer not to see this in my Vicky 2 game. Reminds me of Magna Mundi which pretty much painted European history from 15ct to 19ct to be about nothing else than anti/pro-semitism and playing whack-a-mole against mobs out to lynch jewish ghettoers.

Since Vicky 1 did not put much emphasis or interest in religion, I would not like to see much change in that department. Its 19ct anyway, who needs religion when you have Marx and Engels.

 

[KonradRichtmark]

The problem is, the Vicky engine treats "Jew" as a religious, rather than ethnic, alignment. Something which is entirely appropriate historically speaking, considering the immense cultural differences back then (differences that persist to this day) between different kinds of Jews. But something which, likewise, makes a Jewish state inviable in the Vicky system, unless you add an "Israeli" ethnicity which (supposedly by event) Jewish POPs of any ethnicity would convert to.