Zeeland = islands

[Niptium]

Like it should have been in EU3, the province of Zeeland should be represented as an island (like Venice in EU3). I do hope that the developpers will take notice of this plea.

Zeeland didn't become part of the continent and linked to it until the XXth Century.

 

[Nitjanirasu]

On the CLIO map of the area (thread here), it appears that Middelburg includes Dutch Flanders and other continental holdings to the North and East of modern Zeeland. There had traditionally been some Zeelandic territory on the continent east of Steenbergen...and, of course, there's always Samuel Augustus Mitchell.

Anyway, why should it be an island like Venice? Isn't the only difference that it would make is that a ship could stop an army from moving into the province...and I doubt a single ship could guard the entire length of the Zeelandic archipelago.

 

[Niptium]

The Samuel map is one of the worst I have ever seen. Even the XVIth century maps were more acurate.

The Zeeland in CLIO is also wrong. The Zeeland province encompass the whole archipelagos up to Delft and even the city of Rotterdam while the province of Rotterdam doesn't even comprise the town of Rotterdam!

Its quite simple. You cannot invade Zeeland's major cities without a fleet. Simple as that and you cannot do so without first taking the naval control over the seas around the Zeelandic islands...

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

The Samuel map is one of the worst I have ever seen. Even the XVIth century maps were more acurate.

The Zeeland in CLIO is also wrong. The Zeeland province encompass the whole archipelagos up to Delft and even the city of Rotterdam while the province of Rotterdam doesn't even comprise the town of Rotterdam!

Its quite simple. You cannot invade Zeeland's major cities without a fleet. Simple as that and you cannot do so without first taking the naval control over the seas around the Zeelandic islands...

Not really

Most islands are just separated by shallow waterways, which can easily be crossed. A sea-going fleet would never go into these shallows.

The two widest waterways are the Wester- and Oosterschelde, but these run from east to west and since an invader will most likely come from the east they can't function as a barrier for that.

A railroad connecting the major cities of Goes, Middelburg and Vlissingen to the mainland was finished in 1871.

 

[Niptium]

Not really

Most islands are just separated by shallow waterways, which can easily be crossed. A sea-going fleet would never go into these shallows.

The two widest waterways are the Wester- and Oosterschelde, but these run from east to west and since an invader will most likely come from the east they can't function as a barrier for that.

A railroad connecting the major cities of Goes, Middelburg and Vlissingen to the mainland was finished in 1871.

I do agree Veldmaarschalk. Maybe then for Victoria it shouldn't be an island. So shouldn't Venice then. But in EU4, Zeeland's polder reclamation weren't as extended as in Victoria and then, should be a separate island province like Vence. (Venice's water are even shallower than Zeeland's)

 

[OHgamer]

Venice province in Clio is not an island alone, but includes a bit of the terra ferme as well.

As for Zeeland, the province of Middelburg in Clio is based on the modern province of Zeeland, which has land both on the continent and in the islands (as well as the exclave across the Scheldt estuary bordering Belgium). The province scale for Victoria being larger than for HoI3, it makes more sense to have this province represent both the land and sea territories of the province, and have adjacency to both the Belgian and Dutch mainland.

If V2 was more focused on warfare, it might make sense to split the province up further (as Clio's Iron Heart for HoI3 does) but for the purposes of Victoria gameplay, having one province with adjacencies to land in both Netherlands and Belgium makes the most sense.

As for Clio map not including Rotterdam in Rotterdam province, considering we used actual maps to draw the borders which had the cities located on them, I will say categorically that Rotterdam is located in Rotterdam province. It's not at the center of the province to be sure, but the territory outlined for Rotterdam in the Clio for Victoria map is definitely inclusive of Rotterdam.

 

[Taylor]

I think the confusion about what the zeeland province encompasses is due to the fact that both the haringvliet and the nieuwe waterweg aren't on the CLIO map. The northern border of CLIO's Middelburg runs up to (but doesn't include) Dordrecht, not Rotterdam.

Maybe they can add very narrow waterways to represent haringvliet and nieuwe waterweg? (Dunno if it's technically possible)

 

[Hertog Jan]

I am living in what is today as well as in 1836 the province of Noord-Brabant. Overall I think that the way the CLIO project has depicted the Netherlands is not too bad, but I have found some oddities on the map. After seeing the map from Samuel Augustus Mitchell I know where the mistakes come from.
I agree with Niptium that Samuel Augustus Mitchell's map of the Netherlands is one of the worst around and I also think that the 17th century maps from Willem Blaeu are better.

One thing I found odd is the fact that CLIO's Zeeland comprises half of West-Brabant. In reality Zeeland only contained the southwestern islands (excluding Goeree and Overflakkee, which belong to South Holland) and Zeeuwsch-Vlaanderen (the part south of the Westerschelde, north of Gent).
What I also find odd is the fact that CLIO's Eindhoven also contains the Land of Maas en Waal and the Rijk van Nijmegen, regions that back in 1836 as well as now belong to Gelderland.

Niptium's statement that 19th century Zeeland largely consisted of disconnected islands is true, but the distances between the islands are small enough to be bridged by armies with an engineer corps. It does not take a full fledged fleet to take the province. Gamewise Zeeland should not be treated like an island province. IMHO the province should be treated like an ordinary coastal province, to be freely entered from the north, east and south. Only coastal landings from the sea should be difficult.

I want to close my post with some statements about maps.
Better maps of 19th century Netherlands can be found below:
United Kingdom of the Netherlands (Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg) in 1830
The red line indicates the border between the Netherlands and Belgium from 1830 onwards.

United Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1816
After 1830, Limburg and Luxembourg would be split, with Limburg west of the Meuse river becoming Belgian and the rest remaining Dutch. Luxembourg was split into the present-day Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (an independent state, in personal union with the Netherlands until 1890) and the province of Luxembourg (nowadays a province of Belgium with Arlon as its capital).

The Bosatlas van Nederland, Wolters-Noordhoff, 2007 also contains some good maps about the historical evolution of Dutch provinces over the centuries, including a map of Dutch provinces from 1850.

Map of Dutch provinces as of 2009 Accurate depiction of 19th century Netherlands (if you remove Flevoland), at least more accurate than the map from Samuel Augustus Mitchell. I know it is a bit silly to use a contemporary map for describing 19th century borders, but apart from the creation of Flevoland, Dutch provincial borders have hardly changed since Belgium became independent.

 

[Nitjanirasu]

The Samuel map is one of the worst I have ever seen.

Impressive, ain't it? The worst part...not only was the guy notable enough to get a stub on Wikipedia, but apparently he was popular: 400,000 copies sold annually, in the mid-19th century...:wacko:

 

[Orinsul]

maybe some sort of modifer to the Netherlands should a the mouth of the rivers be controlled. not quite on topic but certainly a great disadvantage is given to the nation if the gates are held, most notably during the failed revolts that preceeded its indpendence, akin to the whole nation being sieged or atleast blockaded and threatened with flood.

 

[Niptium]

I agree that by the 19th century Zeeland should be a land province, but (side note) not in the EU period, not at all...

Take a look at Zeeland at the end of the 16th century. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:1580_Zelandicarum_v_Deventer.jpg

Between the 16th Century and the 19th Century, Zeeland's territory grew by leps and bounds...