Yugoslav Wars

[Ivan Bajlo]

Our game concept for Nato is not clear for now. How to portray them in game? Do you spawn units in the areas they went historically (with abstract airlift events)? But then how they get supplies and their supply lines? Give supplies by events? AI Nato or player playable? Not too crappy to get loads of 'free' stuff events for player?

IIRC supplies don't work on units in neutral territory, not sure if Military access allows supply passage or alliance is needed.

Also the situation is kind of the same with the pro-Serb units who rise up across Croatia and Bosnia. Same game "country"? Yes or no, units will 'appear' trapped behind enemy lines. In real life they get food from their local kinsmen but not in game, supply lines dont reach them.. So they would spawn and then auto die when enemy attacks them, because they are "out of supplies".

Both RSK and RS had control over most of the local police force and later got shield by JNA/YPA, Bosnia would allow military access to these regions in order for supplies from Belgrade to flow.

I think SFRY needs 'Federal troops' (mostly locked in place and released/removed by events)) all over the country (off-map supplies production to keep them alive) with military access by all republics to allow supplies to reach them, most of these units would be removed by events with Serbia inheriting what remains as historically did happen.

Canceling military access would leave these troops cut off allowing player a chance to attack them and capture large amount of weapons but with high risk of losing international support in the long run and possibly provoking much larger war but I got a feeling most players would prefer scenario turning into 'what if' total war anyway.

 

[JRHINDO]

IIRC supplies don't work on units in neutral territory, not sure if Military access allows supply passage or alliance is needed.

Well actually i doubt both trace supplies...

Both RSK and RS had control over most of the local police force and later got shield by JNA/YPA, Bosnia would allow military access to these regions in order for supplies from Belgrade to flow.

But dont we need Bosnia to be at war with RS-RSK (and the other factions)?

I think SFRY needs 'Federal troops' (mostly locked in place and released/removed by events)) all over the country (off-map supplies production to keep them alive) with military access by all republics to allow supplies to reach them, most of these units would be removed by events with Serbia inheriting what remains as historically did happen.

Canceling military access would leave these troops cut off allowing player a chance to attack them and capture large amount of weapons but with high risk of losing international support in the long run and possibly provoking much larger war but I got a feeling most players would prefer scenario turning into 'what if' total war anyway.

Thats a good idea. As for Total War I think we can create somekind of 'Arcade' scenario to trick the noobs

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

But dont we need Bosnia to be at war with RS-RSK (and the other factions)?

Bosnia was technically neutral during War in Croatia although JNA/YPA used it as logistic base and carried out partial mobilization of ethnic Serbs (and probably few others) also massing in Bosnia equipment which was pulled out of Slovenia and parts of Croatia where agreements were reached that allowed it. Once JNA/YPA pulled out RSK with UNPROFOR taking over, preparations for War in Bosnia reached final phase with JNA taking over most of Bosnia during its blitz before it was renamed into VRS and RS become official participant in the war.

IIRC in DH Dutch East Indies are part of Allies but not at war with anyone until attacked but Allies can use it as a base to attack enemy, not sure if that is a bug or a feature but we can use that set up for Bosnia before it leaves alliance and gets attacked. This would create historical situation where western Bosnia would find itself cut off from Belgrade and supplies requiring to create corridor fast or risk total destruction (RS in Banja Luka would have supplies but fuel was constant problem with armored units being vital for war because of low manpower).

 

[Hax]

Ivan Bajlo thank you for showing interest of writing in here! Every idea and information is good!
Would you like to help us code some OOBs? If we help each other the mod will be faster done!

 

[Hogar]

JNA OOB... Are you looking for the information or someone actually coding?

 

[Hax]

JNA OOB... Are you looking for the information or someone actually coding?

Well we have already plenty of information but if you have some new please share.
But we are more looking for somebody who can code. It's useless to collect info if we shall not create OOBs.


Also thank you for the pictures, they will be very useful!
Because you say some info in the mail I guess you are from Balkans but live in NZ?

And is somebody very good at events because we must solve the RSK event problem.

 

[JRHINDO]

I can code it.

 

[Hogar]

I'll just say I have great interest in the region.

RSK should possibly be divided into 2 states because game mechanics will not be able to handle fractured state. Initially I would try with into East (neighbouring Serbia) and West (neighbouring Bosnia). IRL two areas operated quite independently although they had one government.
Also, I would spawn the uprising in Knin and cascade its spread over the region. This way you don't have to worry too much about units getting out of supply. That spread should be quite rapid so that it is completed within 2-3 months at most.

I haven't coded since HOI1 times. I am more then rusty and I have no time whatsoever... At this point I'll say no although I am tempted.

 

[JRHINDO]

I'll just say I have great interest in the region.

RSK should possibly be divided into 2 states because game mechanics will not be able to handle fractured state. Initially I would try with into East (neighbouring Serbia) and West (neighbouring Bosnia). IRL two areas operated quite independently although they had one government.

What do you mean they were 2 groups inside RSK? Do you mean RS and RSK?

IIRC in DH Dutch East Indies are part of Allies but not at war with anyone until attacked but Allies can use it as a base to attack enemy, not sure if that is a bug or a feature but we can use that set up for Bosnia before it leaves alliance and gets attacked. This would create historical situation where western Bosnia would find itself cut off from Belgrade and supplies requiring to create corridor fast or risk total destruction (RS in Banja Luka would have supplies but fuel was constant problem with armored units being vital for war because of low manpower).

Well about DEI thats what military access is for, but you cant directly attack your enemy from a mil access country if theres no war between all countries.

 

[Hogar]

What do you mean they were 2 groups inside RSK? Do you mean RS and RSK?

Geographically RSK was split into 3 parts when she was at it's peak (sizewise):
1) I call it RSK proper, was in the West around towns of Knin and Petrinja
2) West Slavonia was around township of Pakrac/Okucani. I think it was connected with RSK proper but the road connecting them could have been easily threatened by Croatian Army.
3) East Slavonia was around Vukovar, completely cut off from the rest of the RSK and RS. If RSK wanted to send troops from first two areas it would have to be through North Bosnia and Vojvodina.

I can't think how will this work well in the game terms. Normally AI struggles when managing separated regions.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

Well about DEI thats what military access is for, but you cant directly attack your enemy from a mil access country if theres no war between all countries.

That is why we need fixed Federal troops (JNA) so that they can take control of key provinces once war starts, problems is war begun in stages with heavy fighting in one sector and zero fighting in another since neither side had resources for full scale war. Breaking up RSK into several pieces since originally it was formed from SAO Kninska Krajina, SAO Western Slavonia, SAO Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Syrmia which were formed already in 1990 it would solve problem of war in stages plus it would allow for operations Flash and Storm do be carried out without starting total war.

Also no need for uprisings in Croatia since various SAO were formed already in 1990 by simply declaring independence knowing that Croatian government had no resources with which it could react plus it could count on Federal troops to intervene even if it did. There was a crazy plan to make a airborne assault using police helicopters on Knin but that would have been way too small force to make impact plus helicopters would have been at the mercy of JRV MiGs.

As for OOB, because of number of province and way war was typicality fought here I'm not sure whether to go with battalion or company level, anything larger would create huge gaps in the line which would be impossible to hold and large part of the battle line were classic trench warfare (without mass suicide charges of course) with numerous skirmishes and infiltration attempts.

JNA classified its brigades based on peacetime strength "A" from 60% to 100 %, "B" from 15% to 60% and "R" up to 15%. Lot of info if you know Croatian:
http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/4445

 

[Hax]

What do you mean they were 2 groups inside RSK? Do you mean RS and RSK?

Jrhindo you see, west and east. They want to have two countries to represent the two parts of RSK to minimize the AI problems.

That is why we need fixed Federal troops (JNA) so that they can take control of key provinces once war starts, problems is war begun in stages with heavy fighting in one sector and zero fighting in another since neither side had resources for full scale war. Breaking up RSK into several pieces since originally it was formed from SAO Kninska Krajina, SAO Western Slavonia, SAO Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Syrmia which were formed already in 1990 it would solve problem of war in stages plus it would allow for operations Flash and Storm do be carried out without starting total war.

Also no need for uprisings in Croatia since various SAO were formed already in 1990 by simply declaring independence knowing that Croatian government had no resources with which it could react plus it could count on Federal troops to intervene even if it did. There was a crazy plan to make a airborne assault using police helicopters on Knin but that would have been way too small force to make impact plus helicopters would have been at the mercy of JRV MiGs.

As for OOB, because of number of province and way war was typicality fought here I'm not sure whether to go with battalion or company level, anything larger would create huge gaps in the line which would be impossible to hold and large part of the battle line were classic trench warfare (without mass suicide charges of course) with numerous skirmishes and infiltration attempts.

JNA classified its brigades based on peacetime strength "A" from 60% to 100 %, "B" from 15% to 60% and "R" up to 15%. Lot of info if you know Croatian:
http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/4445

Yes I understand, like in Bosnia in the beginning of the war most happened around Drina and RS taking control of Zvornik, Bijeljina.

JNA troops located of all countries in the map besides Albania, some locked to later be unlocked by event.

The current RSK liberation event is that whole RSK(both parts) is liberated but I think something about a month after the event has got run, the game just crashes without explanation.

Brigades will be the highest "army group", but if we don't want to have gaps on the borders like Ivan Baljo says we must use like battalions of around 1000 soldiers.

Ivan I downloaded the file.

So should we have 1,2 or 3 parts of RSK?

SAO Kninska Krajina, SAO Western Slavonia, SAO Eastern Slavonia, Baranja and Western Syrmia

P.S. JRHINDO when can you start trying to fix the RSK event? Now when we got new people who are interested to help us we must take this chance and use it wisely.

 

[JRHINDO]

So should we have 1,2 or 3 parts of RSK?

Well sure why not 3 parts...

P.S. JRHINDO when can you start trying to fix the RSK event? Now when we got new people who are interested to help us we must take this chance and use it wisely.

Once already we tried to fix the RSK problem and when we thought it was fixed it came back. I think its best we redo the events from scratch (and maybe the config files just to be sure).

 

[Hax]

Well sure why not 3 parts...

Once already we tried to fix the RSK problem and when we thought it was fixed it came back. I think its best we redo the events from scratch (and maybe the config files just to be sure).

Hogar and Ivan Baljo what do you think? 2 or 3 parts of RSK?

Maybe the problem lies in the provinces when you run the event.
Let's first try to create a event that creates RSK into 2-3 parts and then see if it works, if not then we can try to re do the config files.

 

[Hogar]

It would probably make sense to have 3 parts as joining Western Slavonia and Kninska Krajina saw some of the fiercest fighting in the initial stages of the war (Hrv. Kostajnica and Hrv. Dubica). IMHO One should fight for this connection (Jasenovac) rather then get it through an event.

 

[Hax]

Alright, does Ivan also agree on this?

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

3 parts should give AI a break and prevent it from constantly moving troops around. Beside connection at Jasenovac was too narrow to have strategic impact, I now see RS was formed from 4 parts! :blink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SAO_BIH_1991_1992.png

And battalions here rarely reached 1000 men, entire Partisan brigade (TO) was suppose to have 1800 max. but even that number was fantasy.

 

[JRHINDO]

I now see RS was formed from 4 parts! :blink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SAO_BIH_1991_1992.png

DAMN Serbs!

Seriously, I think 2 of the north eastern SAO could be merged.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

BTW did someone had idea on how to set up Bihać and other enclaves? Having 3-year siege in HOI terms is impossible, not sure if some sort of "humanitarian aid" and "weapons smuggled" events can work?

 

[Hax]

BTW did someone had idea on how to set up Bihać and other enclaves? Having 3-year siege in HOI terms is impossible, not sure if some sort of "humanitarian aid" and "weapons smuggled" events can work?

I have also thought of that, could be a problem.

Is it possible to create supply centers, I think it was possible in HoI1?