Your proposal for improving HoI Economy

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Mattias88

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Something to stifle the snowball effect of economies. You just grow bigger and bigger with no drawback at all. An easy way would be to reduce building slots. That way you cant make hundreds and hundreds of factories as Germany for example. And converting civs to mils would actually be a reasonable action in game.
 
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Docnessuno

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Modify how exported resources are handled, If no nation is buying my raw materials they should be either available for internal use or paid in civs, not getting either feels like a robbery.

Either the goods are sold to civilian markets, in which case the economy should benefit from it (civs), or they are just hanging around in warehouses because of no demand, in which case they should be available for internal use.
 
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Something to stifle the snowball effect of economies. You just grow bigger and bigger with no drawback at all. An easy way would be to reduce building slots. That way you cant make hundreds and hundreds of factories as Germany for example. And converting civs to mils would actually be a reasonable action in game.
One error shouldn't fix another, Game shouldn't be balance around these MP metas, early rushers..

If a country conquest and build its should grow..

And if it grow it should conquer.

The root of problems is the manpower spam meta "oh i will pick up massassault to win".

Historical germany is already too restricted, in a optimal run hardly have 300 mils on june 1941.

Why is everyone spamming divisions in 1945+?

let me guess: everyone with mass assault multiplayer game, the solution: lets punish end game germany lol.
 
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Alexander 'The Grape'

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Something to stifle the snowball effect of economies. You just grow bigger and bigger with no drawback at all. An easy way would be to reduce building slots. That way you cant make hundreds and hundreds of factories as Germany for example. And converting civs to mils would actually be a reasonable action in game.

IDK, building slots seem to be a realistic cap for many nations. And resources are always the ultimate cap on overall output. UK, USA, and Germany can all struggle with build slots later on.
 
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Harin

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Modify how exported resources are handled, If no nation is buying my raw materials they should be either available for internal use or paid in civs, not getting either feels like a robbery.

Either the goods are sold to civilian markets, in which case the economy should benefit from it (civs), or they are just haning around in warehouses because of no demand, in which case they should be available for internal use.
What a good idea. It would need some careful consideration, so not to break the current trading system.

If I understand the current trade system correctly, resources given up for export is a very loose simulation of the entire world trade system. All those resources not getting visibly bought by another nation, are not really rotting or accumulating in warehouses. They are traded into the invisible trading world that HOI4 is not willing to commit development resources to simulate. Every day, those 'unbought' resources disappear for ever as though world commerce had consumed it all. The few nations that do visible trade with us and give us CIVs is for game play purposes only. If a nation got CIVs for all the resources it sold, then exporting nations would be rich and could very well break the game.

Still, in my opinion, I believe there may be room for your idea as long as we are careful not to break the game. For one, the current trade system most likely simulates the intersection of a nation's economic law and the world trade system. A nation puts up resources for sale to the world market at the rate of 1 CIV per 8 resources (usually) because that is the highest price it can get for the resources. For a nation to purchase its own resources, and in effect, pulling it out of the world trade system would require a higher price. The price would need some serious balance considerations. For two reasons, the price would most likely have to be expensive. One, obviously, is to prevent the player from simply buying only from themselves, instead of AI nations. Two, a nation's current economic law is simulating (or should be) that it is more profitable for those resources to leave the country. Keeping any of those resources in the country would require paying more. What is more? Enough to make it a last choice. Maybe a price of 1 CIV for 4 to 6 resources would work, but it would have to be expensive enough that trade between nations does not shut down.

Some may say that is to expensive. I would reply, no, the expense was created by choosing an economic law that makes internal resources expensive. To reduce the expense, then reduce the economic law. Economics does not allow both to happen, such as making resources expensive enough to sell abroad, but at the same time cheap to purchase internally. The resource can only be expensive or cheap. Not both.
 
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I would suggest an overall rebalancing of resources based on real life data. This would allow for greater trade and production in neglected areas such as South East Asia and Oceania whilst also making it potentially harder for European nations to snowball as they will have to devote more Civs to trade rather than construction.

Iron ore production should mean steel not steel mill production - Germany should have to trade for iron as it did in real life.
 
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Harin

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I would suggest an overall rebalancing of resources based on real life data. This would allow for greater trade and production in neglected areas such as South East Asia and Oceania whilst also making it potentially harder for European nations to snowball as they will have to devote more Civs to trade rather than construction.

Iron ore production should mean steel not steel mill production - Germany should have to trade for iron as it did in real life.
One day, if the developers go all in on trade and resources, I hope they do rebalance all resources based on real life data, as you said. Even so, as you are probably aware, that would only be the first step. The next step, a big one, would be to rebalance how much resource is required to build things. The two should probably go hand in hand or balance will most likely still elude us. I suspect it would also require using fractions of a resource to get right. For example it might take 0.3 iron/steel to make a Panzer I, but 1.2 to make something else. If using whole numbers then the amount of resources would need to be much higher to achieve the same granularity, imho.
 
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marcelo r. r.

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The main function of resources is to create geostrategic importance, so even the war itself...

If wasn't oil in caucasus no one get into trouble to war with russia, or meddling with middle east issues.

If wasn't rubber located on SE asia, no one will bother with control of suez and gibraltar.

If wasn't aluminum in guianas, no one will bother with atlantic.

I know I'm repetitive in blaming the MP meta, but I've seen this same discussion in every game and even in MMPORG's that have multiplayer competitive(pvp), and it ends in the same: the perfectly balanced MP game is a blank soccer field, without geographic characteristics.... and in hoi4 some ppl already are noticed that are mods virtually "removing" minor nations.
 
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The Colonel

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IDK, building slots seem to be a realistic cap for many nations. And resources are always the ultimate cap on overall output. UK, USA, and Germany can all struggle with build slots later on.
US is basically the nation hardest hit with the building slot stick... Germans (through conquest) and Soviets (inherently) have the states to scale to like 1K factories, meanwhile US caps out at around 500. Pretty sad when you look at historical production, though I understand the reason for nerfing US for game balance issues...

Eco snowballing is like the core gameplay loops and IMO one of the main rewarding parts of building your nation. Like, what is HOI if not building up a massive total war economy? Resources, consumer goods for nations that don't have the special buffs to get to perma 0ish% while at war, and slots will stop you eventually, but til then it's all fun.

IMO yeah trade totally needs work. Trade influence is currently really bad, as is AI not buying resources due to not using its own factories which weakens export focus and especially free trade in singleplayer. It's messed up that most of the time free trade is best as a nation who already has no strategic resources of its own to export since you usually have to import far more than you export. I personally miss stockpiling but I get the devs' decision to go away from it and don't expect it back.
 
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What a good idea. It would need some careful consideration, so not to break the current trading system.

If I understand the current trade system correctly, resources given up for export is a very loose simulation of the entire world trade system. All those resources not getting visibly bought by another nation, are not really rotting or accumulating in warehouses. They are traded into the invisible trading world that HOI4 is not willing to commit development resources to simulate. Every day, those 'unbought' resources disappear for ever as though world commerce had consumed it all. The few nations that do visible trade with us and give us CIVs is for game play purposes only. If a nation got CIVs for all the resources it sold, then exporting nations would be rich and could very well break the game.

Still, in my opinion, I believe there may be room for your idea as long as we are careful not to break the game. For one, the current trade system most likely simulates the intersection of a nation's economic law and the world trade system. A nation puts up resources for sale to the world market at the rate of 1 CIV per 8 resources (usually) because that is the highest price it can get for the resources. For a nation to purchase its own resources, and in effect, pulling it out of the world trade system would require a higher price. The price would need some serious balance considerations. For two reasons, the price would most likely have to be expensive. One, obviously, is to prevent the player from simply buying only from themselves, instead of AI nations. Two, a nation's current economic law is simulating (or should be) that it is more profitable for those resources to leave the country. Keeping any of those resources in the country would require paying more. What is more? Enough to make it a last choice. Maybe a price of 1 CIV for 4 to 6 resources would work, but it would have to be expensive enough that trade between nations does not shut down.

Some may say that is to expensive. I would reply, no, the expense was created by choosing an economic law that makes internal resources expensive. To reduce the expense, then reduce the economic law. Economics does not allow both to happen, such as making resources expensive enough to sell abroad, but at the same time cheap to purchase internally. The resource can only be expensive or cheap. Not both.
After reflecting on it for a bit, I believe the best option is as follows:
As you mentioned the modeling is that "unsold" resources are still actually sold trought inter or intra-national civil commerce.
What if those sales would still generate civs (either at the usual ratio or at a reduced one, that is a matter of balancing), but those civs could only be used to produce consumer goods (as this is representative of non-state sponsored trade).
The idea would have the advantage of "playing nice" with resource-rich minors and colonies, a place like the dutch east indies would not need to care anymore about consumer goods, but it would not find itself with 50 more civs out of the blue.
 
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The main function of resources is to create geostrategic importance, so even the war itself...

If wasn't oil in caucasus no one get into trouble to war with russia, or meddling with middle east issues.

If wasn't rubber located on SE asia, no one will bother with control of suez and gibraltar.

If wasn't aluminum in guianas, no one will bother with atlantic.

I know I'm repetitive in blaming the MP meta, but I've seen this same discussion in every game and even in MMPORG's that have multiplayer competitive(pvp), and it ends in the same: the perfectly balanced MP game is a blank soccer field, without geographic characteristics.... and in hoi4 some ppl already are noticed that are mods virtually "removing" minor nations.
This is very true and conquest for resources is one of the main drivers of the game however wouldn't it be more rewarding if every country had an accurate amount of resources. It would allow countries in South America, Africa, Oceania and even Asia to be worth conquest rather than the current slugfest over a few rich resource tiles in Europe.

Australia had huge amounts of iron ore, aluminium and tungsten as well as a limited amount of oil. This is not represented in the game and means that conquering it isn't worth the effort.

China and Eastern Russia have next to no resources and are therefore not worth the time as Japan or any other major to conquer.

Overall I want to see a move away from the Euro centric play style and move towards the global conflict over resources that WW2 was.

 
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I play with the historical Industry-Mod, which make the Industry as historical as possible. And if you use the more Military-Intustrial Enterprises you get the atm. Maximum of realistic in that for the Industry-Part.
 
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I play with the historical Industry-Mod, which make the Industry as historical as possible. And if you use the more Military-Intustrial Enterprises you get the atm. Maximum of realistic in that for the Industry-Part.
I'll have to give that one a try. Thanks
 

benis1996

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Honestly the whole civ/mil factory concept is problematic. I posted about this a year or two ago but of course they are not going to change it at all. My idea can be described here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...utput-in-the-1936-start.1497804/post-27900753

This is also largely the reason why a pre-1936 start doesn't work; economies blow up too quickly and any semblance of balance would be destroyed by early game decisions.
 
Dec 5, 2021
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I agree with a lot of the suggestions in this thread, they make a lot of sense. Glad that so many people have given it a lot of thought and attention and I think they would improve the gameplay a lot.

Honestly the whole civ/mil factory concept is problematic. I posted about this a year or two ago but of course they are not going to change it at all. My idea can be described here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...utput-in-the-1936-start.1497804/post-27900753

This is also largely the reason why a pre-1936 start doesn't work; economies blow up too quickly and any semblance of balance would be destroyed by early game decisions.
This is pretty reasonable and makes sense too. Would also make civ to mil conversion actually really worth it. Actually the more I think about your ideas the more I like them. The snowballing is a real pain
 
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benis1996

Banned
Nov 13, 2022
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Caps are honestly a really bad idea and needing them is proof that the current system is broken. I'll repeat my proposal again for this thread:

1. Significantly increase the cost of building new factories. New factories represent economic growth which should not occur at the ridiculous rates it does in the game.
2. Reduce the cost of factory conversion. Most wartime production occurs by sacrificing "butter" for "guns". There is somewhat of a tradeoff.
3. adjust the factory costs, economic laws, and the initial factory counts to achieve an optimal mix between balance and history (perhaps give the player a slider to decide between a balanced start and a historical start for factory count).

This solves the problem of ridiculous exponential growth by slowing down total factory count (preventing the need for building slot caps) but allows for rapid militarization under the correct economic laws (by converting civ factories to mils).
 
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