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BaronNoir

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Also, call me cynical, but, yeah.

Considering the Nazis legendary respect for treaties (evident by september 1939) and their respect of international conventions (also evident), it would have been likely preferable to save at least a measure of national dignity and let the Germans find a third grade Quisling to play the puppet ruler.

''It would have been like a Poland'' is an argument that lose a lots of it's weight considering that it was used primary by the Germans as a threat to make the French more compliant.
 

fredinno

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Also, call me cynical, but, yeah.

Considering the Nazis legendary respect for treaties (evident by september 1939) and their respect of international conventions (also evident), it would have been likely preferable to save at least a measure of national dignity and let the Germans find a third grade Quisling to play the puppet ruler.

''It would have been like a Poland'' is an argument that lose a lots of it's weight considering that it was used primary by the Germans as a threat to make the French more compliant.
How would the French know at the time that wouldn't happen to them?
 

BaronNoir

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Knowing the Germans, excepting anything beyond ''legal pillaging'' was widely optimistic, the Nazis adding other niceties such as utterly ignoring the armistice when they felt like it.

That's really the entire point. Pétain and Laval signed the armistice thinking they would be able to use chips like the Fleet, the Empire or the French administration to help them improve the situation. It was a very naive viewpoint.
 

Klausewitz

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That still smacks very much of hindsight being 20/20.
 

BaronNoir

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The entire point is that Pétain and Laval lacked any kind of hindsight, yes. They kept making calculations and petty schemes that were far beyond ''caretaker government to cope with the occupation''

1)They signed a disastrous armistice, because the army wanted to save it's ''honor'' and not surrender. An armistice is way more binding than a surrender.
2)They kept offering deals and ressources to the Nazis well beyond the time it should have dawned to them that this was not going to work. For instance, they had (perfectly justifiable) concern over the French POWs in Germany and tried constantly to free them. They offered to the Germans various schemes, like ''la Relève'', which is sending THREE French workers for each freed POW. Not only the Germans did not actually freed the POWs (or ''gracefully'' released sick POWs or POWs that were bound to be released anyway, such as collabos) but do i need to explain that such three to ones deals were not very good ?

(Because, completely flabergasting information here, the Nazis surprisingly came to the conclusion that there was not enough French workers in Germany, and asked in the following months for more, paving the way for the numero uno recruitment tool of the maquis, the Service du Travail Obligatoire. Not to mention niceties such as counting as ''freed'' prisoners POWs that ''volunteered'' for work in the factories...)
 
Last edited:

AtlanticFriend

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Poland is the clear case of a nation refusing to capitulate or collaborate.

But to be honest, Poland had strictly no other choice. The Germans weren't about to authorise a Polish "rump state" run by Polish proxies, their project (as well as the Soviets' at the time) was to annex Poland entirely. So collaboration - at the government level - was definitely not an option Poland could contemplate.

As for Pétain, one has to separate him from some of the Vichy government's actions. I am not saying he is innocent, far from it. But Vichy was a hodge-podge of reactionary movements, some fiercely antisemitic, some fierce anti-republican, some neither, some both. It was a fractious government, mostly running on the fumes of individual ambitions and frustrations, whose action only served to deepen divisions that existed throughout the French society as a whole. IMHO, it could not have ended differently, as soon as German control over it weakened.
 

pithorr

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But to be honest, Poland had strictly no other choice. The Germans weren't about to authorise a Polish "rump state" run by Polish proxies, their project (as well as the Soviets' at the time) was to annex Poland entirely. So collaboration - at the government level - was definitely not an option Poland could contemplate.

As for Pétain, one has to separate him from some of the Vichy government's actions. I am not saying he is innocent, far from it. But Vichy was a hodge-podge of reactionary movements, some fiercely antisemitic, some fierce anti-republican, some neither, some both. It was a fractious government, mostly running on the fumes of individual ambitions and frustrations, whose action only served to deepen divisions that existed throughout the French society as a whole. IMHO, it could not have ended differently, as soon as German control over it weakened.
First of all, Poland has nothing to bargain. France still had its fleet and colonial empire with an option to rent them to the British...
 

Kgw

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And France wasn't labelled as "space for German expansion".
 

fredinno

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I am not sure if it was so certain at that moment.
+ this. Mien Kampf laid out German plans for expansion into the East- but Hitler could just as easily decide that Germany should also expand into France, using the HRE as an excuse (and they'd have a significant Nazi faction vying for this to happen- to the point it almost happened in OTL).
 

Graf Zeppelin

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bz249

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+ this. Mien Kampf laid out German plans for expansion into the East- but Hitler could just as easily decide that Germany should also expand into France, using the HRE as an excuse (and they'd have a significant Nazi faction vying for this to happen- to the point it almost happened in OTL).

They wanted to get Burgundy back... or at least there were some maps that France should be pushed back behind it border of the High Middle Ages. Whether this was something serious it is difficult to say, because it would have required long term planning, which was not exactly a key issue by the Nazi leadership. Their horizont was comparable to a modern corporate manager, aim for the the next quarter and we are going to see clearer at that point (at least till the next quarter again).
 

fredinno

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They wanted to get Burgundy back... or at least there were some maps that France should be pushed back behind it border of the High Middle Ages. Whether this was something serious it is difficult to say, because it would have required long term planning, which was not exactly a key issue by the Nazi leadership. Their horizont was comparable to a modern corporate manager, aim for the the next quarter and we are going to see clearer at that point (at least till the next quarter again).
Burgundy wasn't a colony. It was a SS puppet state.
 

BaronNoir

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The German expansionism is a good example of why the armistice was a catastrophe.

With Hitler, it was obvious for everyone that he would ask Alsace Lorraine at the peace treaty. (That he did not even bothered with a gunpoint-enforced peace treaty to annex it unilateraly was not that surprising with the Nazis) Both were unavoidable.

Why the armistice made it worse ? Because Laval and Pétain tried to bargain Alsace-Lorraine.

In addition of zany schemes (like the Darlan ''Okay, we accept the lost of Alsace but we get more coal''-that was called the collaboration donnant-donnant., the give and take collaboration....or ''Okay, we will send more workers, but you will expel 50 000 people instead of 60 000 this year) that gave the impression that the French government was peddling itself, Pétain or Laval (who were not mustache twirling Quislings) were incapable of even protesting the annexation.
 

Dr.Livingstone

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Before WW2, I of course applaud him for being a good general. During Vichy, fine, France was occupied, and someone needed to be at the table to prevent complete destruction.

However, Petain knew what was going on. He did little, if anything, to delay or prevent the rounding up of French citizens, or France's participation in one of the greatest slaughters in Europe's history. He could've done more, and he didn't, and so I don't weep at his fate.
 

BaronNoir

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For the record, Pétain had a pretty good point at his trial. He did not intrigued with the Germans to be nominated.

He was recalled by the Third Republic and became Président du Conseil because the Président asked. (On the other hand, Laval doubled down-after being casted out of the government in december 1940, he conspired with Germans to return)
 

Cavalry

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Phillipe Petain is... controversial. Personally, I defend the dude- since Vichy France didn't really have a choice in what it did during WW2.

I think we needed both Petain and De Gaulle- because both tried to save France in different ways- one helped the French by protecting them from German Occupation, and another by saving France from overseas.

He failed to save Vichy but he stayed. He didn't control the Vichy Government anymore but his position in the Government prevent some more Frenchmen joining the Resistance and can be used as an excuse for collaborators.
 

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For the record, Pétain had a pretty good point at his trial. He did not intrigued with the Germans to be nominated.

He was recalled by the Third Republic and became Président du Conseil because the Président asked. (On the other hand, Laval doubled down-after being casted out of the government in december 1940, he conspired with Germans to return)

Pétain wasn't exactly "recalled" by the Republic, because he did not stopped to serve it during the inter-war era (in military, academic, diplomatic, governmental missions) up to the moment he decided to make his coup.

Reynaud, the President of the Council of Ministers (the head of government), and Lebrun, the President of the Republic (the head of state), named him as Vice-President of the Council of Ministers, hoping that they would get the flamboyant hero of Verdun who promised, back then, about Germans that they'll will not pass... (a motto latter adopted by Spanish Republicans), alas for Reynaud, what they get in the government, was the stubborn opponent to any war with Germany, even when the war was already there, the herald of defeatism, the wall against all solutions whose aim would be to pursue the war, the man who would paralyse the action of the government.

As Pétain did oppose to anything that didn't implied the unilateral surrender to Germany, the solution found by Reynaud was to let the burden to Pétain so he would seek to get his armistice with Nazi Germany. Reynaud was so confident that German demands would be so unacceptable for France's honour that he was sure that Pétain's suggested option could only end being sanely ruled out and with it the whole defeatist faction of the government. He was persuaded that he would then be called back as President of the Council and that it would only leave one path to follow: pursuing war. So he gave his resignation to Lebrun, suggested him to name Pétain to succeed him as the next President of the Council and -as he wisely figured- German demands were indeed way too much unacceptable for French honour...

... but Pétain not only accepted them: he asked to soldiers to stop fighting even before negotiating armistice terms, while there was still fightings! Then he made his institutional coup and destroyed the Republic in Mainland France. Why? Because, like many military top officers and even like a part of the parliamentary right-wing of the time, Pétain was a silent but convinced opponent to the Republic and a French defeat against German was seen being very desirable for them as it would allow to put an end to Republic's revolutionary values of Human Rights, fundamental liberties, popular sovereignty, &c. and to reform, to rebuild the old society of order, labour and obey. The defeat was a divine surprise, to quote Maurras, one of the major political thinker of that political family.

Not that Pétain and his followers were nazi or fascists: those two political family were and still are quasi inexistent in France... French fascism only achieved to take some control in very exceptional circumstances of 1944, when Vichy collapsed, Germany invaded the so-called Free zone and the Militia took control over what it could). Before that very short and specific moment, French fascists showed their disdain and their disappointment of Vichy's Regime, whined that it was too much reactionary.

Just like Franco who received, in 1939, credence letters from Pétain, then Ambassador of France in Spain, Pétain and Maurras believed in counter-revolutionary values. This counter-revolutionay right, is the right-wing, whose main thinkers include Chateaubriand, Burke, Bonald, Maistre... After the Franco-Prussian war, with the wind of nationalism -that is to say ethnic nationalism- altered all right-wing political families. For example the authoritarian and popular right, which was Bonapartist in the old times, became Boulangist after the Franco-Prussian War, Rocquist during the inter-war and Gaullist in the After-war.
Similarly, nationalism inspired the old counter-revolutionary right, especially under Maurras thought and his Integral Nationalism. This is this thought that was experimented by Pétain between 1940 and 1944. 1829-1830 and 1940-1944 are the sole cases, since the French Revolution, were this political family effectively controlled the national executive body.

Hence, the idea that Pétain would had tried to save France from German invasion is, in my humble opinion, incorrect. What he tried to do, was to save France from French Revolution dregs and from Republican vices (such as liberty, equality and fraternity) through German invasion! Through a German invasion which allowed him to establish a new, non-republican, regime found, among others, on the values of labour, family and fatherland.
 
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Henry IX

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I think it's a bit rich for some people to call Petain a traitor. He certainly wasn't betraying his own beliefs, nor was he betraying France as such (any moreso than Cromwell betrayed England, Lenin betrayed Russia, or Hitler betrayed Germany). One can certainly (and indeed, probably should) criticize his rule, but the accusations of treason are in this case rooted more in the fact that he lost than in a genuine betrayal.

He was ABSOLUTELY a traitor. He was a minister in the government and he consistently worked to undermine the government that he was a sworn minister in during a war with a deadly enemy. If he had stepped in to take control of the collaboration government after France's defeat he would not be a traitor, but he actively attempted to bring that defeat about as a member of the government at least partly in order to increase his own personal power. That is treason and oath breaking.