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The-Doc

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Antisemitism didn't need to be imposed on France. It went right along with the French traditionalist and Catholic mindset Petain represented. The great groundswell of opinion and division exposed in the Dreyfus affair didn't just disappear. The Vichy state might be looked at as a forced settlement of French political and cultural divisions and was a golden opportunity for those that couldn't have enjoyed that supremacy otherwise.
 

th3freakie

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What I found odd is that there is apparently only one film made of his story - 1993's French Pétain - which must have been so good it didn't even warrant a wiki article in english and the only IMDB review is titled "A well costumed production".

Kid who grew up listening to older relatives talking about serving under Napoleon grows up to be war hero only to then become a traitor, survives the trial only to die senile, directing imaginary armies in his head - That's full of potential for one of those Oscar-bait films that come out in the Autumn.

And responding to OP, my opinion is that his role in establishing/legitimizing the Vichy regime and all of its crimes make him a full-on traitor and criminal, to France and to the Human Race. Doesn't mean I don't credit him with his victories or even that I do not recognize he was a man of great courage - surrendering twice, both to Germany and to the Allies, was certainly brave - but he applied it at the wrong times in the wrong ways and for all the wrong ideals.
 

soda7777777

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Phillipe Petain is... controversial. Personally, I defend the dude- since Vichy France didn't really have a choice in what it did during WW2.

I think we needed both Petain and De Gaulle- because both tried to save France in different ways- one helped the French by protecting them from German Occupation, and another by saving France from overseas.

Yeah, they did all could to protect French Jews. Oh wait. :rolleyes:
 

LatinKaiser

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He was probably one of the greatest Frenchman to ever live. In France's darkest hour, he allied with the Canadians and Americans and liberated the French people from the Communard oppressors, saving the world from the horrors of Syndicalism.

Oh, wait...
 

soda7777777

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He was probably one of the greatest Frenchman to ever live. In France's darkest hour, he allied with the Canadians and Americans and liberated the French people from the Communard oppressors, saving the world from the horrors of Syndicalism.

Oh, wait...

Syndicalism did nothing wrong and the old United States collapsed after the people rose up against it.
 

fredinno

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Yeah, they did all could to protect French Jews. Oh wait. :rolleyes:
I defend him versus all the people who demonize him. He has blood on his hands, yes, but I don't agree with his modern portrayal as a traitor. Because he really wasn't.

Also, the 'dealing with the jewish problem' generally went as far as segregation, and not the later extermination that his successor eagerly carried out.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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He is a honorable and respectable man who realized that the times are changing. He secured Frances place under the sun and made the coutnry prosper. With his alliance to Germany he secured the peace in Europe and maybe in the world forever.

Regards
Adolf Hitler.
 
Last edited:

fredinno

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He is a honorable and respectable man who realized that the times are changing. He secured Frances place under the sun and made the coutnry prosper. With his alliance to Germany a secured the peace in Europe and maybe in the world forever.

Regards
Adolf Hitler.
lol

But seriously, Vichy France would probably be the best France could hope for if Hitler really did win WW2. Sad that one of the Great European Powers fell so quickly.
 

James Beil

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Competent general, with compassion for the men under his command. As a political leader, forced into some pretty awful circumstances, he did not show the defiant strength of conviction that one would expect from a general, nor from a Frenchman. History does not remember him favourably for his role after 1919, and it should not.
 

Narwhal

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You are speaking with respect of a man who from the late 30ies actively plotted against the Republic.

Even De Gaulle devastating one-liner on De Gaulle ["Old age is a shipwreck"] is too kind for the man.

Also, the "victor of Verdun" reputation is getting strongly revised by historians nowadays. "The best PR person of Verdun" seems to be more and more appropriate.
 

fredinno

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DoomBunny

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Also, the "victor of Verdun" reputation is getting strongly revised by historians nowadays. "The best PR person of Verdun" seems to be more and more appropriate.

Interesting. Anything in English you'd recommend? Or a translation of a French work?
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Also, the 'dealing with the jewish problem' generally went as far as segregation, and not the later extermination that his successor eagerly carried out.
Well Imagine you are a French Jew and your "legit" government helps the Nazis to get you. The word traitor is not that far fetched.
 

yerm

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Well Imagine you are a French Jew and your "legit" government helps the Nazis to get you. The word traitor is not that far fetched.

My understanding is that roughly a third of the jews in occupied western nations were sent to camps. France, which sent about 1/4, murdered among the lowest % of its population. It was beaten by Denmark, but then they had extremely few jews compared to neighbors to begin with.

I hate to feel like I am hero worshipping Petain, or diminishing how awful 1/4 of a race being murdered is. I just think you all are being unfair. He was not worse than his contemporaries (except one that wasn't a priority target) for holocaust reasons. If I am wrong I welcome a sourced rebuttal; I cannot read French.
 

pithorr

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My understanding is that roughly a third of the jews in occupied western nations were sent to camps. France, which sent about 1/4, murdered among the lowest % of its population. It was beaten by Denmark, but then they had extremely few jews compared to neighbors to begin with.

I hate to feel like I am hero worshipping Petain, or diminishing how awful 1/4 of a race being murdered is. I just think you all are being unfair. He was not worse than his contemporaries (except one that wasn't a priority target) for holocaust reasons. If I am wrong I welcome a sourced rebuttal; I cannot read French.

Well, I thought the Germans murdered those Jews, not the French...
 

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Arilou

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The collaboration - yes, but they were murdered by the Germans themselves. Usually far away, in Poland...

Not really, thousands of jews died in french concentration camps.