The important thing about airfields is not icd but the manpower. This can shift the balance a bit in favour of radar.
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The important thing about airfields is not icd but the manpower. This can shift the balance a bit in favour of radar.
UPDATE ON SAVY UK PLANS TO WIN WW2 with RADAR
This UK laid down one line each of AAA and also one line of radar on same date. Now- in February, 1938 - we have constructed 16 AAA and 5 Radar. This results, as I said, "AAA constructs 3x as fast a radar".
While radar does cost 3 IC and AAA only 2 IC, it is irrelevant to compare them on their icd. As the last "c666 mis-test" clearly learned, radar will be counted only in minimum numbers needed to be effective. While the Brits invented the confounded contraptions, apparently they never learned how to operate them unless placed in effective densities.
I am also proud to announce that this UK has now constructed ONE strategic bomber (Hurray! ... we have a complete set!) and we also constructed zero interceptors and zero fighters (as per last inventory done).
Our goal is to by Fall 1939 (or maybe spring 1940) have 7 AAA with 3 Radar at each London, Norwich, Dover and Portsmouth; with additional 5 AAA in Birmingham and Liverpool where many of our factories are; and a further 6 AAA each at Sheffield, Bristol and Plymouth to cover the flanks; and finally 4 AAA in Malta (where we might put a radar too should time permit).
So, while we have not been so crazy as a certain UK AI did in AoD that placed radar also in Scapa Flow, we do hope our defensive plans will be effective. Should it turn out that all our handiwork is counter-intuitive with the result that the AI Luftwaffe somehow is less crazy (and decides never to bomb England in this lifetime) then we will inform the world that "we effectively won WW2" while we ponder what to do by ourselves sitting on our fortified rock. :closedeyes:
As such, we dismiss all critics who claim radar is not effective until 1943. We trust in all dear to us that this war will be won long before then.
This UK laid down one line each of AAA and also one line of radar on same date. Now- in February, 1938 - we have constructed 16 AAA and 5 Radar. This results, as I said, "AAA constructs 3x as fast a radar".
While radar does cost 3 IC and AAA only 2 IC, it is irrelevant to compare them on their icd. As the last "c666 mis-test" clearly learned, radar will be counted only in minimum numbers needed to be effective. While the Brits invented the confounded contraptions, apparently they never learned how to operate them unless placed in effective densities.
I am also proud to announce that this UK has now constructed ONE strategic bomber (Hurray! ... we have a complete set!) and we also constructed zero interceptors and zero fighters (as per last inventory done).
Our goal is to by Fall 1939 (or maybe spring 1940) have 7 AAA with 3 Radar at each London, Norwich, Dover and Portsmouth; with additional 5 AAA in Birmingham and Liverpool where many of our factories are; and a further 6 AAA each at Sheffield, Bristol and Plymouth to cover the flanks; and finally 4 AAA in Malta (where we might put a radar too should time permit).
So, while we have not been so crazy as a certain UK AI did in AoD that placed radar also in Scapa Flow, we do hope our defensive plans will be effective. Should it turn out that all our handiwork is counter-intuitive with the result that the AI Luftwaffe somehow is less crazy (and decides never to bomb England in this lifetime) then we will inform the world that "we effectively won WW2" while we ponder what to do by ourselves sitting on our fortified rock. :closedeyes:
As such, we dismiss all critics who claim radar is not effective until 1943. We trust in all dear to us that this war will be won long before then.
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Wow.....what a terrific bonus in this thread finding the real deal numbers with radar! I previously used radar in the main production areas of Germany just because I vaguely remember "somebody" stating "something" years ago about what an asset they can be for your most valuable provinces. That was as good at I could recall with my 10 second memory span.
I didn't recall at all how more radars in the same province makes an improved performance. Great thing to learn!
This place is marvelous.....again.....thank you everybody!
I didn't recall at all how more radars in the same province makes an improved performance. Great thing to learn!
This place is marvelous.....again.....thank you everybody!
Next Update on UK's magnificient Radar
It is now mid-November 1939, and we have constructed 10 Radar, 32 AAA, 13 AA brigades for Garrisons; and we have constructed 1 STR, 2 CAS, 2 FTR and 6 INT (Hurrah! we have a bit of an air force now!)
Finally on November 22nd - a clear winter's day - we were pleasantly surprised by the arrival of 4 Luftwaffe bomber wings (one stack) over Norwich - where we have placed 2 radar, a total of 7 AAA, and also an AA brigade on the GAR guarding that province.
As the Krauts started bombing us, we gleefully scrambled all 10 of our INT/FTR to take them on. This will make a great screen shot when that Radar turns on!
RESULT: The lousy contraption failed to see the aircraft battle.... and so - sorry to say we can't report anything positive yet.
But we are very determined... maybe place some more radar? :angry:
It is now mid-November 1939, and we have constructed 10 Radar, 32 AAA, 13 AA brigades for Garrisons; and we have constructed 1 STR, 2 CAS, 2 FTR and 6 INT (Hurrah! we have a bit of an air force now!)
Finally on November 22nd - a clear winter's day - we were pleasantly surprised by the arrival of 4 Luftwaffe bomber wings (one stack) over Norwich - where we have placed 2 radar, a total of 7 AAA, and also an AA brigade on the GAR guarding that province.
As the Krauts started bombing us, we gleefully scrambled all 10 of our INT/FTR to take them on. This will make a great screen shot when that Radar turns on!
RESULT: The lousy contraption failed to see the aircraft battle.... and so - sorry to say we can't report anything positive yet.
But we are very determined... maybe place some more radar? :angry:
Or keep researching radar and post a screenshot on air combat once you've reached 1943?
But by that point, you might want to have a major offensive air force, in addition to a significant land force in order to ensure Stalin doesn't take all of Europe
Uk radar works!!!
He who prevails will succeed. The crazy AI Luftwaffe flew over 7 AAA installed at Norwich to reach London where another 7 AAA is firing at them while they bomb a GAR with AA brigade. And, after this air battle concludes, the surviving bombers will have to pass again over the Norwich AAA.
I honestly hope no human would ever be so dumb to make this useless attack. But I got so excited when it happened I even missioned one of my bombers to attempt the interception. It is not a strong interception because all my INT and FTR recently returned from France after the Luftwaffe and we had our second MASSIVE AIR BATTLE involving my 4 TAC, 4 STR and 8 INT while the Luftwaffe AI played brilliantly to further that chapter in the on-going battle for dominance of the skies over mainland Europe.
HOWEVER, look at that beautiful Radar Icon displaying in this screen shot. It certainly was worth 20,000 or more icd just to see that marvelous contraption with such pretty icon for the first time on my lap top display.
And check out the modifier. I got 2 radar there.
BUT all that does not end well is not good. On the next two Luftwaffe bombing runs (changed to attack Norwich where I also got 2 radar installed) both times the radar there failed to turn on.
Unfortunately, I now need to add extra radar in the spots I already got them; and - given their long construction times - I probably will not have the modified project completed once France falls… when I expect the Luftwaffe to become even more aggressive. This radar failing to sometimes turn on with a Level 2 is a real bummer. I need to achieve Improved Decimetric 1940 tech asap.
Yes, I'll keep updating.
At March 1940 I have 5 TAC, 4 STR, 3 CAS, 10 INT and 3 FTR while I'm constructing a fourth CAS, one line INT and also FTR, 1 line TAC, and 2 lines NAV (with the STR unit near bottom of production queue to gather up "slider wastage" and so, someday, become a finished extra unit as I already nearly had one STR annihilated.
The Luftwaffe - according to my 12 spies - has "28 fighter squadrons and 15 bombers". I feel that currently I am gaining air dominance over France (and am bombing Cologne regularly) even though I do not have military control of France... but sometimes their air units needlessly over-stack my use of Paris and Lille air bases. So I need to repair my damaged units in England, and that is what got involved in the screen shot battle.
However, Germany is significantly ahead on all Improved aircraft research... and I dread the day they actually get something upgraded. Additionally, probably in response to my now successfully bombing Cologne frequently, the German AI is currently tackling 4 air doctrines... so will significantly pull well ahead of me on that effort too. On a different topic, the extra cost for espionage can be vitally important in a case like this.
Well, I hope to re-create a historical game. So I won't stop the Wehrmacht in Belgium this time. I won't transport in any Aussies, Kiwis, Afrikaners, or even assist Belgium and France get their units from Africa to prevent the fall of France. I am only putting in a historic size BEF which I've estimated as 9 brigaded INF, 6 brigaded MOTs and a HQ. But because I really am afraid of losing them (if I don't react properly to save them with a historical Dunkirk) I also added 6 divisions of Canadian INF placed deeper into France to protect my southern flank. It might be those units will never be able to evacuate... so I thought is nice of me to use Canuks instead of my own. :wub:
So far, in this game, my only direct ground interference with Hitler’s aims was to take MC of Poland to put on LWs… and a week before Danzig I put on leaders to play the defense as to how the AI had positioned that mess. It reinforced to me just how deficient a defensive player I really am. I under estimated the Wehrmacht blitzkrieg every time, and lost so many stacks. I managed to keep Poland alive only until September 25th. It added a few days to what the Polish AI manages – but wasn’t a major setback for Germany.
If Stalin does reach Berlin before the Allies, that would be fine. But take all of Europe, that – Mr_BOnarpte – can never happen because I will have the British 1st Airborne by then.
He who prevails will succeed. The crazy AI Luftwaffe flew over 7 AAA installed at Norwich to reach London where another 7 AAA is firing at them while they bomb a GAR with AA brigade. And, after this air battle concludes, the surviving bombers will have to pass again over the Norwich AAA.
I honestly hope no human would ever be so dumb to make this useless attack. But I got so excited when it happened I even missioned one of my bombers to attempt the interception. It is not a strong interception because all my INT and FTR recently returned from France after the Luftwaffe and we had our second MASSIVE AIR BATTLE involving my 4 TAC, 4 STR and 8 INT while the Luftwaffe AI played brilliantly to further that chapter in the on-going battle for dominance of the skies over mainland Europe.
HOWEVER, look at that beautiful Radar Icon displaying in this screen shot. It certainly was worth 20,000 or more icd just to see that marvelous contraption with such pretty icon for the first time on my lap top display.
And check out the modifier. I got 2 radar there.
BUT all that does not end well is not good. On the next two Luftwaffe bombing runs (changed to attack Norwich where I also got 2 radar installed) both times the radar there failed to turn on.
Unfortunately, I now need to add extra radar in the spots I already got them; and - given their long construction times - I probably will not have the modified project completed once France falls… when I expect the Luftwaffe to become even more aggressive. This radar failing to sometimes turn on with a Level 2 is a real bummer. I need to achieve Improved Decimetric 1940 tech asap.
Or keep researching radar and post a screenshot on air combat once you've reached 1943?
Yes, I'll keep updating.
At March 1940 I have 5 TAC, 4 STR, 3 CAS, 10 INT and 3 FTR while I'm constructing a fourth CAS, one line INT and also FTR, 1 line TAC, and 2 lines NAV (with the STR unit near bottom of production queue to gather up "slider wastage" and so, someday, become a finished extra unit as I already nearly had one STR annihilated.
The Luftwaffe - according to my 12 spies - has "28 fighter squadrons and 15 bombers". I feel that currently I am gaining air dominance over France (and am bombing Cologne regularly) even though I do not have military control of France... but sometimes their air units needlessly over-stack my use of Paris and Lille air bases. So I need to repair my damaged units in England, and that is what got involved in the screen shot battle.
However, Germany is significantly ahead on all Improved aircraft research... and I dread the day they actually get something upgraded. Additionally, probably in response to my now successfully bombing Cologne frequently, the German AI is currently tackling 4 air doctrines... so will significantly pull well ahead of me on that effort too. On a different topic, the extra cost for espionage can be vitally important in a case like this.
...in addition to a significant land force in order to ensure Stalin doesn't take all of Europe
Well, I hope to re-create a historical game. So I won't stop the Wehrmacht in Belgium this time. I won't transport in any Aussies, Kiwis, Afrikaners, or even assist Belgium and France get their units from Africa to prevent the fall of France. I am only putting in a historic size BEF which I've estimated as 9 brigaded INF, 6 brigaded MOTs and a HQ. But because I really am afraid of losing them (if I don't react properly to save them with a historical Dunkirk) I also added 6 divisions of Canadian INF placed deeper into France to protect my southern flank. It might be those units will never be able to evacuate... so I thought is nice of me to use Canuks instead of my own. :wub:
So far, in this game, my only direct ground interference with Hitler’s aims was to take MC of Poland to put on LWs… and a week before Danzig I put on leaders to play the defense as to how the AI had positioned that mess. It reinforced to me just how deficient a defensive player I really am. I under estimated the Wehrmacht blitzkrieg every time, and lost so many stacks. I managed to keep Poland alive only until September 25th. It added a few days to what the Polish AI manages – but wasn’t a major setback for Germany.
If Stalin does reach Berlin before the Allies, that would be fine. But take all of Europe, that – Mr_BOnarpte – can never happen because I will have the British 1st Airborne by then.
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QED. Better late than never
. At all events, I don't understand why you felt the need to substantially modify a former post of yours after two days because of a "typo" (this one, for the record), shifting it from a complete acknowledgment that you got the matter wrong (you quoted and even thanked me in your original version from 7/1, and that was very kind of you and pleasant to read, for giving you useful info about how radar works) to a very defensive position, as if later you felt ashamed for that, or who knows what. No need to change history (i.e. posts) after days just to hide this fact - nobody's going to crucify you for not having understood a game mechanic
. We more experienced players are here even to guide less versed ones towards a better understanding of the game.
New update
Turns out that UK's radar - even when built up to Level 3 - mostly does not work. So far my radar - in over a dozen air battles - turned on only twice. First time was screen shot with a Level 2 radar site. Next time it was over a Level 3 site.
The radar mostly not turning on is probably due to my not yet having achieved Improved Decimetric radar tech (1940).
This undesirable situation puts a new consideration on radar given the long construction time to build them, and the uncertainty if higher levels of radar is more important than better techs to get the contraptions to work consistently.
First of all, higher levels is too much IC for Germany because - at a plan to build Level 3 radar sites - a line of 12 radar would give only 4 sites. However, that already needs about 5 years construction time. So now it comes down to "How many lines can Germany afford" to provide enough Level 3 radar sites to protect its many high IC provinces. Germany really needs to cover about a dozen sites - quite affordable if doing only a Level 1 and relying on better techs to get them to turn on. But constructing 3 lines of radar to get twelve Level 3 sites seems extravagant.
But any "budget plan" doing only Level 1 sites and relying on better techs to get radar to turn on has a "wait consideration" because the techs are quite advanced, meaning radar probably will not have any effect until long after air dominance as already been decided.
But maybe, by 1943 - if game is at a historic balance - then Germany might find twelve Level 1 radar sites covering Europe with modern tech achieved to actually have some worthwhile effect countering the USA bombers.
As regards radar for the UK, adequate coverage can be gotten from just six sites - so one line of radar in production to eventually give Level 2 radar at those sites seems appropriate. But I think it was a mistake for me to increase any site past Level 2. It would have been better to first do next tech, and then see if that fixes the problem.
To condense all stated so far as per my experience:
Level 1: Radar never turned on - although there were few air encounters during that time of constructing my radar sites.
Level 2: Turned on once in about 6 encounters.
Level 3: Turned on once in about 6 encounters.
EDIT: Higher levels give better modifier..
Turns out that UK's radar - even when built up to Level 3 - mostly does not work. So far my radar - in over a dozen air battles - turned on only twice. First time was screen shot with a Level 2 radar site. Next time it was over a Level 3 site.
The radar mostly not turning on is probably due to my not yet having achieved Improved Decimetric radar tech (1940).
This undesirable situation puts a new consideration on radar given the long construction time to build them, and the uncertainty if higher levels of radar is more important than better techs to get the contraptions to work consistently.
First of all, higher levels is too much IC for Germany because - at a plan to build Level 3 radar sites - a line of 12 radar would give only 4 sites. However, that already needs about 5 years construction time. So now it comes down to "How many lines can Germany afford" to provide enough Level 3 radar sites to protect its many high IC provinces. Germany really needs to cover about a dozen sites - quite affordable if doing only a Level 1 and relying on better techs to get them to turn on. But constructing 3 lines of radar to get twelve Level 3 sites seems extravagant.
But any "budget plan" doing only Level 1 sites and relying on better techs to get radar to turn on has a "wait consideration" because the techs are quite advanced, meaning radar probably will not have any effect until long after air dominance as already been decided.
But maybe, by 1943 - if game is at a historic balance - then Germany might find twelve Level 1 radar sites covering Europe with modern tech achieved to actually have some worthwhile effect countering the USA bombers.
As regards radar for the UK, adequate coverage can be gotten from just six sites - so one line of radar in production to eventually give Level 2 radar at those sites seems appropriate. But I think it was a mistake for me to increase any site past Level 2. It would have been better to first do next tech, and then see if that fixes the problem.
To condense all stated so far as per my experience:
Level 1: Radar never turned on - although there were few air encounters during that time of constructing my radar sites.
Level 2: Turned on once in about 6 encounters.
Level 3: Turned on once in about 6 encounters.
EDIT: Higher levels give better modifier..
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Final report on Basic Decimetric Radar
Soon the UK will have achieved the new IMPROVED Decimetric Radar. We hope that will improve much regarding the serious short comings encountered with BASIC Decimetric Radar - even when built to a Level 3 station:
a) Approximately 90% of the time it simply fails to turn on during combat.
b) The few times it has turned on, it does so late. Having the radar come on for last 2 hours of air combat is nearly useless as the battle outcome as already been decided by then.
However, I did note that Level 3 radar site gives a considerable better modifier of +9.45 during air combat.
Once the Improved radar exists, I'll try to give new updates on its performance. Ideally, technology should be achieved to the point that a level one radar site would be reliable. That seems the only way a country like Germany needing many places protected should ever build these confounded contraptions.
Soon the UK will have achieved the new IMPROVED Decimetric Radar. We hope that will improve much regarding the serious short comings encountered with BASIC Decimetric Radar - even when built to a Level 3 station:
a) Approximately 90% of the time it simply fails to turn on during combat.
b) The few times it has turned on, it does so late. Having the radar come on for last 2 hours of air combat is nearly useless as the battle outcome as already been decided by then.
However, I did note that Level 3 radar site gives a considerable better modifier of +9.45 during air combat.
Once the Improved radar exists, I'll try to give new updates on its performance. Ideally, technology should be achieved to the point that a level one radar site would be reliable. That seems the only way a country like Germany needing many places protected should ever build these confounded contraptions.
Report on IMPROVED decimetric radar
It is June 1941, UK developed IMPROVED decimetric radar about 6 months ago, and recorded the details of each air battle over LEVEL 3 Radar Sites.
The fact is that radar turned on only four times in 11 encounters. When it did turn on, half the time it only turned on for last 2 hours of the battle - making that a minor contribution.
To recall, with Level 2 radar site, radar turned on once in six encounters, and never with Level 1 radar site - but that was using the previous Basic Decimetric technology.
However, with the new technology, radar also has never yet turned on at either the new radar site at Malta (level 1) or the now level 2 site at Kristiansand, Norway.
As such, radar does not work adequately in AoD - certainly not to make it effective or IC cost-wise to construct. However, there remains player worth in constructing the "nearly useless contraptions" because - EVENTUALLY - with further technological improvements - radar will probably consistently turn on; and do so at start of every air battle. And the modifier already - when it performs - is substantial. But currently, mostly there is only a fun challenge to build up new locations using that attractive icon - but for right now nearly useless contraption.
While there is a definite "future for radar" in AoD with further technology, I feel the whole issue is "not performing adequately for investment". Radar should be given a DEV work-over to make it fit WW2 reality - which was it always turned on (unless damaged). Radar does not have any technical "on-off" problem - it was only short-coming of interpreting what the radar scope shows, and better radar sees further and gives greater detail. But even the earliest UK radar could always pick up enemy bomber formations crossing the Channel. It had to work.. or it would never have been constructed.
For AoD to try to mimic the historic "interpretation/identification problems" that did exist by using modifiers that result in radar not turning on consistently is quite wrong BECAUSE it will discourage players constructing them, and Level 1 is the only affordable way a country like Germany can cover enough as needed given their long construction period.
Instead AoD would be better to replay the historic problems by always having radar turn on (even Level 1 at Basic Decimetric) ... and simply give very small modifier for air combat - increasing with new techs and higher levels. That way, players will get the joy of having them work during Battle of Britain, and incentive to invest in making them work stronger.
I might give new report after next tech achieved (if the AI Luftwaffe still has any aircraft left to challenge me over my radar sites). :rofl:
It is June 1941, UK developed IMPROVED decimetric radar about 6 months ago, and recorded the details of each air battle over LEVEL 3 Radar Sites.
The fact is that radar turned on only four times in 11 encounters. When it did turn on, half the time it only turned on for last 2 hours of the battle - making that a minor contribution.
To recall, with Level 2 radar site, radar turned on once in six encounters, and never with Level 1 radar site - but that was using the previous Basic Decimetric technology.
However, with the new technology, radar also has never yet turned on at either the new radar site at Malta (level 1) or the now level 2 site at Kristiansand, Norway.
As such, radar does not work adequately in AoD - certainly not to make it effective or IC cost-wise to construct. However, there remains player worth in constructing the "nearly useless contraptions" because - EVENTUALLY - with further technological improvements - radar will probably consistently turn on; and do so at start of every air battle. And the modifier already - when it performs - is substantial. But currently, mostly there is only a fun challenge to build up new locations using that attractive icon - but for right now nearly useless contraption.
While there is a definite "future for radar" in AoD with further technology, I feel the whole issue is "not performing adequately for investment". Radar should be given a DEV work-over to make it fit WW2 reality - which was it always turned on (unless damaged). Radar does not have any technical "on-off" problem - it was only short-coming of interpreting what the radar scope shows, and better radar sees further and gives greater detail. But even the earliest UK radar could always pick up enemy bomber formations crossing the Channel. It had to work.. or it would never have been constructed.
For AoD to try to mimic the historic "interpretation/identification problems" that did exist by using modifiers that result in radar not turning on consistently is quite wrong BECAUSE it will discourage players constructing them, and Level 1 is the only affordable way a country like Germany can cover enough as needed given their long construction period.
Instead AoD would be better to replay the historic problems by always having radar turn on (even Level 1 at Basic Decimetric) ... and simply give very small modifier for air combat - increasing with new techs and higher levels. That way, players will get the joy of having them work during Battle of Britain, and incentive to invest in making them work stronger.
I might give new report after next tech achieved (if the AI Luftwaffe still has any aircraft left to challenge me over my radar sites). :rofl:
Thankyou for all your testing and reports.
I'm not too sure building radar should be cost effective, as from what I've read it wasn't IRL. It required tremendous resources & research to work, with the end results perhaps not making such efforts worth it (at least during WWII).
I'm not too sure building radar should be cost effective, as from what I've read it wasn't IRL. It required tremendous resources & research to work, with the end results perhaps not making such efforts worth it (at least during WWII).
I definitely agree with you about AoD radar. Hate to tell you how many I built by now because you will probably icd it into "Spitfires lost!"
But I definitely can't agree with your real life WWII remark. Sure, the operators on Hawaii - seeing the Japanese air armada approach - made a bad call thinking it was their B-17s coming to land. But it was peace time!
However, I learned in the history books that it was radar which was very responsible for saving you guys the Battle of Britain. It was also Hawker Hurricanes and Spitfires and especially the bombing of Berlin (possibly ordered by Churchill) that angered Hitler to divert Goring's effort to finish off the RAF (which he was very close to achieving) by retaliating with bombing London. That gave the RAF a 2-day respite which is largely credited for turning around the Battle of Britain.
But all along it was radar - and only radar - that let the RAF mass against the enemy formations. Without radar - the RAF would have been decimated long before Bomber Command did the diversionary raid on Berlin.
And Germany also used radar effectively to scramble their fighters. I think radar was very effective in WWII by 1940 (for Britain) ... and should be in AoD too. It's only a matter of changing the modifier scale, I think.
While radar took brains to get the idea to work...and research... and considerable resources to construct - once operating it used very little manpower or resources. It simply feed info to Air Command. Air Command existed all along... can't really attribute that cost to radar. In fact, the Germans only bombed it a few times early on... then quit - not appreciating/knowing what it was.
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Radar is very effective, it is just not very efficient in 1940. The research is expensive and so is building size 10 Radar Station. But a bonus of 15.75% in 1940 on offensive and defence can make a significant difference. To get the same gain on firepower via building more Interceptors albeit stacking penalty requires 31.5% more Int. A size 10 radar stations costs 3600 icd before sliders and 2160 icd with best sliders. 16 instead of 12 Int1940 cost 8400 icd before sliders and 3024 icd at best sliders. It seems to me that in extreme cases Radar can be efficient in 1940, but certainly it is effective.
The main question seems to be the probability of it turning on. Is the hourly probability 15.75% in this concrete case and 10.5% x size x tech efficiency in general?
The main question seems to be the probability of it turning on. Is the hourly probability 15.75% in this concrete case and 10.5% x size x tech efficiency in general?
Before I turn this into a history debate, I think AoD had got it relatively right in regards to radar. Here's why:
In 1940:
* (British) radar could only detect aircraft above the ocean, once it was above land radar became useless (and the Royal Observer Corps came into play)
* The time it took from detecting enemy aircraft, to plotting it on a map, to getting the friendly aircraft to take off in response would vary from 6.5 to 16.5 minutes in ideal conditions (I.e peacetime)
* The training of radar operators declined dramatically due to Britain's rearmament program: The radio school course was shortened to a fortnight, with the original course not considered long enough by experts (unfortunately my book doesn't say how long the original time was)
* This lack of training had a direct impact of radars utility, with two different radar stations giving "wildly conflicting height estimates" on enemy aircraft. This is particularly severe as pilots could typically see 'only' two miles in front of them - while most planes of the time could fly 300-350mph.
* Radio operators needed to be highly skilled as RDF only gave reliable estimates when calculating the elevation between one and a half and fifteen degrees - most stations at the time could only measure between one and a half and six degrees anyway.
*Night bombers in 1940-41 were virtually unstoppable - but obviously, their accuracy was also severely hindered
To sum up, radar did not 'save' Britain from defeat in the Battle (over) Britain - assuming Britain even won the air campaign; it was more of a stalemate then victory.
(source: The Royal Navy and the Battle of Britain by Anthony J. Cumming)
In 1940:
* (British) radar could only detect aircraft above the ocean, once it was above land radar became useless (and the Royal Observer Corps came into play)
* The time it took from detecting enemy aircraft, to plotting it on a map, to getting the friendly aircraft to take off in response would vary from 6.5 to 16.5 minutes in ideal conditions (I.e peacetime)
* The training of radar operators declined dramatically due to Britain's rearmament program: The radio school course was shortened to a fortnight, with the original course not considered long enough by experts (unfortunately my book doesn't say how long the original time was)
* This lack of training had a direct impact of radars utility, with two different radar stations giving "wildly conflicting height estimates" on enemy aircraft. This is particularly severe as pilots could typically see 'only' two miles in front of them - while most planes of the time could fly 300-350mph.
* Radio operators needed to be highly skilled as RDF only gave reliable estimates when calculating the elevation between one and a half and fifteen degrees - most stations at the time could only measure between one and a half and six degrees anyway.
*Night bombers in 1940-41 were virtually unstoppable - but obviously, their accuracy was also severely hindered
To sum up, radar did not 'save' Britain from defeat in the Battle (over) Britain - assuming Britain even won the air campaign; it was more of a stalemate then victory.
(source: The Royal Navy and the Battle of Britain by Anthony J. Cumming)
That about the training is very interesting - especially the problems about estimating altitude of enemy so the RAF interceptors could position for best advantage. And yes, early radar could not discern enemy aircraft over land. But as the radar always could see the enemy crossing channel, I think AoD would be better to get its radar to, firstly always turn on to support players building it; and secondly, give very small modifier to air combat to simulate the real life problems as I had mentioned about "interpretation of the radar scope image."
Then, to encourage players to improve their Level one radar site, the incentives of higher modifier with increased technology and more levels would give player a "hands on feel" of the worth of continuing to invest more. I just don't like it never turning on as a Level 1 even with Improved Decimetric as I experienced this game.
I don't think it was radar that contributed to that. Radar sees just as well day or night. I think it was more the RAF fighters that could not be effective fighting at night (probably because they could not see very far visually). So, yes, at first, only AAA could try to take down the night bombers. And radar had no modifier on that artillery. In fact, AoD connecting radar to better AAA performance (if that is true... I think somewhere it was mentioned) I find odd. But nice would be if radar spotted ships in adjacent sea zone - even if it does so only with later tech. That alone might give players a new incentive to invest in it.
I'll agree to disagree to spare a history debate. I think Cumming is not the only historian that discussed in detail the Battle of Britain, and seems they don't agree on some things. But did Churchill not call it a victory?
IRL radar helped detect enemy aircraft, it did not help in the actual combat between aircraft - at least not in 1940.
Cumming is one of the foremost experts on the issue, and goes into some detail on the technical, as well as strategic, issues of the campaign.
Of all the people who have claimed the Battle of Britain ended in a British victory you chose the most obvious. Official histories are never 100% accurate and 100% unbiased.But did Churchill not call it a victory?
That is an excellent point. And AoD has the problem of how to simulate the effect of that in the game mechanics. They could just have made radar with the only benefit being better air detection. But I think you would agree that no stack of INT or FTR has any noticeable lack of detection problems... so making extra detection from radar redundant. As such, seems somebody came up with the concept of let's have it also modify air combat.
I think the idea is right on... but we might disagree why. Contrary to your earlier, my history studies reveal that radar was most important in plotting enemy aircraft direction during the Battle of Britain so that the RAF could mass several squadrons to expected interception point to get better odds against enemy. That idea lends credence to AoD making radar modify air combat.
But yes, plotting accuracy depended on at least 3 different radar sites agreeing - because each radar could only give its own "direction to target" and bomber command triangulated that into presumed position of enemy formation. Often the 3 radar sites' individual bearing to target did not give a pin point cross location, and there were more serious problems with height estimation (vital to the pilots for tactical advantage). Finally, all was changing quickly in real time, so Air Command had to make educated guesses to scramble another squadron or not - because if scrambled to wrong location - it would not be contributing when encounter began.
The idea of "radar permitting massing squadrons" to correct same location seems the validation for AoD giving air combat modifier. But true, radar does nothing other than show where target currently is (and even that was not always correct with UK 1940 radar sites that operated best when three different sites gave a tight cross triangulation).
My only point is the "lack of reliability" of AoD radar - it never turning on until either higher levels or better techs are reached (as per my game experiences). That short coming does not encourage players to build it. Everything in AoD does something when you construct it... and it does it better with more of same or better techs. Radar is an exception to that concept in the early stage of game. The only thing comparable to this "break from basic game concept" is Nuclear Test Site which can do nothing (even at level 10) unless bomb tech is achieved. But that is really a very unique situation and should not be compared to the situation with earlier radar.
Think instead of constructing Rocket Test Site. If it did nothing until you had higher levels combined with higher techs, would you build it? Of course not. What about Level 1 AAA at most earlier tech? Does it ever not fire? Of course not. If it did that, who would ever build it? Further, shall we expect all players to know the files (or read Forum) so they can calculate the probability factor of radar turning on at any level/tech; or for that matter read when Commander666 finally reports "My radar is working every encounter now?"
Simply, failing to turn on at Level 1 at earliest tech means this part of AoD will probably be considered "useless" by most players trying it. That is sad, and wrong because radar does have a definite future.
Yah, using Churchill should be banned from Forum.
Another idea I just got - if radar is to be accurate to RL - then really what it should be doing is giving a message pop-up when ever any coastal radar spots anything in adjacent sea zone. That could be most useful warning to both UK and Germany players to pause game and scramble interceptors. Higher level of radar and better techs would give more accurate information on size of enemy. Now we get to Germany and UK having a very useful installation that nicely performs the unique function it was designed for. Let player worry about his own interception tactics while doctrine research gives modifiers as exists. But often in game, there is so much to do that neither side can keep map centered on English Channel all the time - although for replaying the Battle of Britain - if winning matters -I would recommend that. So, radar alerting player might be well worth the investment. But, again, it needs turn on at level 1, every time... or I think many people will just skip this part of the game.
Interestingly, air doctrines increasing aircraft org is not right either. By rights, they should be a combat modifier just like the radar currently is. Seems a couple "concepts" got juggled a bit.
Interestingly, air doctrines increasing aircraft org is not right either. By rights, they should be a combat modifier just like the radar currently is. Seems a couple "concepts" got juggled a bit.
^ One of the things Darkest Hour has got better than AoD is a "Scramble" mission for aircraft, which would be neat to have here as well. It would save some unnecessary micromanagement (which would still be required in some cases, but not always).
I quite agree. I like the idea of radar giving some early warning to aircraft approaching a coast. That would then make for an interesting build up of them along the Atlantic Wall. But it needs to be what German player can reasonably afford. The idea of needing Level 10 for maximum benefit just sounds much too expensive, and there is a real time problem constructing them. I think a level 10 radar site takes about 3 years to build. While I can't check in my game right now, I do have some past recollection of how long it takes to construct a Level 10 nuclear plant (test site). Seems the construction time comparatively isn't right. There really is not very much to a radar site. The Brits started with some towers that had wires stretched across, added a bit of cabling and a shack for the operators!