You should be able to control trade direction

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Karabas1543

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Here's the thing:

When playing (and dominating) as a RoW country, current flow of trade makes no sense as it locks in European dominance in trade. This is historically accurate, but since EU allows for RoW players to rewrite that history, it seems to make sense to allow them to direct the flow of trade as better suits them.

Example:

I'm finishing up a run as Brunei -> Malaya, which basically ended up as a reverse-colonialism game. I control nearly all the Americas and have overseas territories in Iberia, Genoa, and England. I could easily control majority of the trade in Sevilla, Genoa, and London trade nodes, but I don't, because I can't direct that trade back to Malacca (my home node). I don't want to move my trade capital because I make a killing off of the trade in Asia as it is.

Given the situation in my playthrough, where majority of world powers are eastern and the European powers are stuck on their continent, I think I should be able to steer European trade away from Europe (for example, to the Americas and then to Asia via Nippon).

Suggestion:

Let's say you require a 60% control of a trade node to be able to change its direction - this will make trade heck of a lot more fun as it will suddenly become far more important. Trade has historically made and destroyed major world powers and it would in this case as well.
 
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Zwirbaum

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Do you know it would lead to self-loop and crashing?
 

Zwirbaum

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Not impossible to prevent through good coding. Easier said than done though considering the already existing bits of spaghetti code that have accumulated over the years.

IIRC according to Johan - dynamic trade flow is not possible in current engine, and will result in self-looping and crashing. So the problem may be a little bit bigger than just 'lazy/good coding'

Though he said it some time ago, and who knows what engine wizardry is now available.
 

Coffer

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IIRC according to Johan - dynamic trade flow is not possible in current engine, and will result in self-looping and crashing. So the problem may be a little bit bigger than just 'lazy/good coding'
Fair point if the problem is with the engine. Definitely adds to the ever-increasing list of reasons to start transitioning (not even directly, just progressively) to EU5 though.
 

Ironside121

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IIRC according to Johan - dynamic trade flow is not possible in current engine, and will result in self-looping and crashing. So the problem may be a little bit bigger than just 'lazy/good coding'

Though he said it some time ago, and who knows what engine wizardry is now available.

Same engine so the issue will still persist, as far as my knowledge goes- they haven't had a major update of the engine as it's too difficult post release, so I doubt it'll happen for this title. The updates to the engine for the newer games may have allowed this, but not for EU. Not until 5.
 

FrogCrusher

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The problem is each steering generates money ex nihilo. In the trade routes, there is any loop for this reason only. It you revert one flow, you will create a loop, leading to an exponential increase of the money along that loop, until it crashes (infinite money is not an option :p). (And moreover, the manner this is coding can be even more impactful, like circular reference - the value of the steering output on one node depends on the previous nodes, so depends from itself if in a loop - leading to immediate crash ^^)
The mechanics of steering has to be changed before allowing loops in the trade routes.
Finally, I bet the IA would be very bad to do money with trade if you could do that.
 
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Coffer

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Same engine so the issue will still persist, as far as my knowledge goes- they haven't had a major update of the engine as it's too difficult post release, so I doubt it'll happen for this title. The updates to the engine for the newer games may have allowed this, but not for EU. Not until 5.
It's not impossible to work your way around engine issues. ISI's gMotor engine, used first in rFactor and still used for ones like Automobilista to this day despite being 10+ years old, has at least one glaring flaw: the traction, which is exceptionally badly coded to the point of being completely unrealistic. However, the people behind Automobilista, specifically Niels Heusinkveld, have managed to mitigate it significantly such that the issue is almost completely minimized in the latest batch of cars (starting from about 6-9 months ago).

Problem is, only a small handful of such issues can be resolved through mere tweaks, and as you said, updating the engine is much too difficult and not at all worthwhile at this point. That's why the mere knowledge of the issue being so strongly tied to the current old engine that it can't be readily tweaked to accommodate dynamic flow completely invalidates my argument from earlier.
 

R.Graymarch

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I would love that trade flow could not be fixed, it would be such a gamechanger. But I understand it's not possible for EU IV
It's not that a big change but in MEIOU&Tax, the "centre of trade" modifier depends on the strength of provincial trade in the region/area. I love this dynamic because it shows that nothing in set in stone.
 

SolSys

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Though he said it some time ago, and who knows what engine wizardry is now available.
Same engine so the issue will still persist, as far as my knowledge goes- they haven't had a major update of the engine as it's too difficult post release, so I doubt it'll happen for this title. The updates to the engine for the newer games may have allowed this, but not for EU. Not until 5.
The engine has evolved since EU4 -- newer version are used for HoI4 and Stellaris.

That being said, @Ironside121 is right in saying it won't affect EU4 since engine builds are forked so game development could be done on a stable non-changing** version. They do seem to be willing to update certain modules if it doesn't break any game-specific modifications [i.e. the new MP module].


**HoI4 is different since the fork seems updated probably due to the rework.
 
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mruuh

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Guys, stop with the "crash" talk. Loop detection in graphs is a problem solved decades ago. The problem is not that the game would crash, that is easy to protect against, but that it would likely require too much time and effort to cover all corner cases and weird interactions in a complex game which was written with "trade node graph is set in stone" expectation in mind. It's a bit like if you suddenly realized 2+2 is not 4, and had to rediscover and relearn the whole world which now works differently.

Not to mention balancing and preventing all kinds of exploits the player could make, that would add yet more hours upon hours of developer time (and headaches), and still players would find loopholes (pardon the pun), so it would take several patch releases to make things work somewhat acceptably.
 

Karabas1543

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If it's an engine issue, I'm glad that it's at least been brought up.

If it's a development effort issue, then that's different. Dynamic trade nodes would add a whole new layer to the game, so I personally think it'd be worth it - but I already enjoy playing trade-oriented games, so maybe that's just me.
 

FrogCrusher

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Guys, stop with the "crash" talk. Loop detection in graphs is a problem solved decades ago.
Yes ;) Like I said, the main problem is the steering mechanic itself before the implementation issue. Even with no bug/crash, changing flow direction would not working without new steering mechanism.
So, @Karabas1543 what do you propose to replace the current steering boost in addition? It could be a flat boost, and in that case seems to me difficult to balance between early game and end game. In any case, that boost can not depend on itself.

Moreover, I think the current state adds actually more strategy. Yes, the solution is known, but it forces you to deal with the geopolitical situation to do the right conquests, to put vassals who can divert trade for you, to change your trade port for 200 dip points, etc...
By allowing the change of flow direction, I think it will be easier. Just redirect trade to your historical home node and you're done. The trade management will become more local instead of the current global system.
 

R.Graymarch

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In my vision, you could not directly control the flow direction but it will (may) change depending on what happens in game. If you develop a trade power house in America, the trade "should not" flow to Europe but the other way round. In that sense, it would be more strategic, "how can I do to have the trade going to me?". Right now, this part of the system is railroaded and if you are in London, Genoa or Sevilla, you are golden. It doesn't have to be that way
 

PhoenixG

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I'm always for a more dynamic trade system. Although I don't think YOU need 60% of the trade power is a good requirement. imo it's better to have the combined trade power of the countries in the "upper" node to be counted.
 

mruuh

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This is really just one symptom of the dichotomy that is present all throughout EU4 and its mechanics. The game can not decide what it wants to be. Big parts of the game allow being ahistorical - you can create a powerful, multicontinental empire or even do a WC as any small OPM anywhere in the world if you're good, but there are some systems and mechanics which try to railroad you into the timeline we had in our reality, and historical development that happened in it. Trade system and trade node connections are one of them.

Other examples are:
- certain rules around institutions and inability of unreformed american natives to embrace institutions (also westernization before that),
- technology groups and pips for units in various world regions
- continental nations and their limitation to Americas and Oceania

You simply can't do alternate history too well in this game, e.g. Apache somehow making huge advances, uniting North America, and bringing their culture, laws and inventions to backward europeans. The world would look very different in that timeline, architecture, warfare, moral values in society, .... Too many game mechanics are Europe-centric, and too inflexible for something ahistorical like that.

But oh well - the game is called *Europa* Universalis, after all. :)
 

makaramus

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not trade route but I was trade values was dynamic... I mean instead of events they were bound to trade good production.

I mean every trade good gonna have a base value and value of their is reduced if world producing it way too much! and incrases if everything else other than it produced more.

note: by this system grain is gonna be most valueable base valued trade good... because its everywere and produced a lot so if you dont set a high value first it will make it extremly worthless XD

values will be checked every 2 years
 

Karabas1543

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Well how about a simple solution: allow trade steering in any direction.

Back-steering already exists for nodes downstream of your home node. You just can't direct a merchant to do it.

This way in my Malaya example I'd be pulling a lot of trade from Europe into the Americas, but a little will go the other way (from Americas to Europe).
 

artemis667

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I would love that trade flow could not be fixed, it would be such a gamechanger. But I understand it's not possible for EU IV
It's not that a big change but in MEIOU&Tax, the "centre of trade" modifier depends on the strength of provincial trade in the region/area. I love this dynamic because it shows that nothing in set in stone.

It's a great mod but doesn't really change the rigidity of the system's flow.

On the other hand it's nice that we actually have flowing trade at all in EU4, a significant upgrade from EU2 and 3. I'm not expecting revolutionary changes in this game's lifecycle, but I'd hope for something in the next edition, whenever and in what form that might come.
 

rinehime

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Well how about a simple solution: allow trade steering in any direction.
How is this a "simple solution"? Allowing trade steering backwards will create loops, which is the major problem with the implementation.
Back-steering already exists for nodes downstream of your home node. You just can't direct a merchant to do it.
No it doesn't. Trade power is propagated backward. Trade value is not. Steering directs trade value, not power.