"You can no longer westernize if a western nation owns one of your cores"

[Quaade]

Lol I forgot about that... Though to be honest I am not sure if such simple way around will work, I think pdox expected that 'exploit'.

Well they have made such mistakes before and given that they fixed the "sell province" it could be an oversight in believing this is fixed elsewhere

I don´t see it as being overly nerfy, it makes you not able to do some irrational behaviour simpy for the purpose of westernizing, which brings me back to how technology works. Yes western should be superior but instead of penalizing players who want to be the "best" and compete with the great powers, they could make it more logical backwards, add some steps to become better and provide other means to play other than being western.

I like the change, that 80-90 % of the world was not western, but they were influenced by them. But this didn´t mean that these nations were incapable, history are riddled with such cases, albeit the cases I recall are not from this period but the gap was huger so the issue remains. Zulu and Afghanistan show greatly how an "inferior" nation were capable of fighting and winning over such nations

 

[raikaria]

Remember, you can always revoke your core and thus be able to Westernise, unless the core is non-revokable.

 

[Torugu]

Remember, you can always revoke your core and thus be able to Westernise, unless the core is non-revokable.

Again, I'm virtually certain that you'll still able to westernize if you border a non-trade company province, even if that province is one of your cores. No need to abandon cores whatsoever.

They only fixed the bug that allowed you to westernize if you didn't border a non-trade company province (if a Western nation owns one of your cores).

 

[Daddl]

I as well understand this like you just can't westernize off a core in a province you lost and not gained in a war in a trade company region anymore. Simply bordering a nation in the Americas should still be fine, whether they own one of your cores or not. Would just be a silly, arbitrary and unnecessary restriction otherwise.

 

[zukodark]

If it is correct, it will not make it that hard to westernize. Just revoke your cores if any western nation owns them. If you are the primary nation for the culture, seperatists will still go to you, if the nation even have them. Don't see that much of a problem.

 

[kvk]

It will not make it that hard to westernize. Just revoke your cores if any western nation owns them. If you are the primary nation for the culture, seperatists will still go to you, if the nation even have them. Don't see that much of a problem.

Why revoke? you can still westernize by bordering, it doesn't prevent westernising, even though it may sound like it, I think it has just been worded oddly. (it only makes it so that nations can no longer westernize just because you own one of their cores, something relevant in asia with trade companies)

 

[zukodark]

Why revoke? you can still westernize by bordering, it doesn't prevent westernising, even though it may sound like it, I think it has just been worded oddly. (it only makes it so that nations can no longer westernize just because you own one of their cores, something relevant in asia with trade companies)

That was what I actually believed myself. It was more of a "if" case. Edited for clarity.

 

[kvk]

That was what I actually believed myself. It was more of a "if" case.

Ah, alright, yeah if it really is like that, then it is a terrible change and it makes no sense to me.

 

[PhroX]

Assuming this means you can't westernise purely through a western nation controlling your core (rather than being completely unable to do so if that is the case) then it seems like a reasonable change. There's still the discrepancy between african/eastern nations and new world ones though - the latter purely need to border western nations, while the former, thanks to trade companies, need to actually conquer western land (at least until one of them becomes western), whereas before they could get round the this if a western nation conquered their land.

 

[Sunspawn]

Just renounce to your core and Westernize?

It was related to westernizing despite a province being a trade company province due to it containing your core. Such as the Goa event.

 

[Wagonlitz]

and given that they fixed the "sell province" it could be an oversight in believing this is fixed elsewhere

What was it they did?

Zulu and Afghanistan show greatly how an "inferior" nation were capable of fighting and winning over such nations

Though that has more to due with logistics and how Europe couldn't just send doomstacks across the sea like they can in game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This one wasn't even on my radar for this patch. I noticed it, but I didn't care. American nations can use their new border to westernize at the same moment they could in 1.13 in most cases. What this does is make it harder for AI nations to westernize in Asia. If I'm playing in Asia myself it means...absolutely nothing to me. I've played so many games in Asia...yet have never lost land as a means to westernize.

At best, this change will slow down the complaints about the AI spamming westernization, not that such complaints were ever founded in the first place. Regardless, if this is bothering you from the perspective of playing ROTW yourself you should probably look at your strategy...there's never been a time where this was a good option.

 

[ForzaA]

Maybe there used to be a bug where you could westernize if a western nation had one of your cores even if you otherwise wouldn't be able to westernize? Otherwise this seems like an illogical nerf.

As far as I know, this is/was the bug that was fixed.

There is no BLOCK (again, afaik) on westernising just because a westerner owns one of your cores. What was blocked is that you can no longer westernise because you happen to have a core on land now owned by a westerner.

Admittedly, the phrasing on the fix could be better.

ie.

You used to be able to westernise if any one of the following conditions was true;
- you owned a core province of a western nation (and had it cored)
- you bordered a core province of a western nation (and your province was cored), and the province was not part of a trade company.
- a western nation owned (and had cored) one of your core provinces.

The third one was not intended, and has been removed.

 

[Quaade]

What was it they did?

Not sure if it ever were the case, should have put "fixed" in quotation aswell But when you sell, you lose core and claim but wasn´t clear...

Though that has more to due with logistics and how Europe couldn't just send doomstacks across the sea like they can in game.

To be fair, doomstacks were rarely used due to attrition and lack of supply and the regular uses for local armies. Only rarely, and at great cost was a nation able to actually send a massive armies, but the logistics were huge and pricey since they would need enough supply to support.

As a general rule, before professional armies like Prussia soldiers were made up from the peasants and town-dwellers and as such they were limited to be used locally, those few who were willing or had no obligations at home (field, workshop or simply a nagging wife) were paid for their services by going beyond the local area they were required to defend or be ordered around in. The cases suggested had an increase of professional soldiers, but they still had to eat, so looting and supplying was necessary and supplying a doomstack properly was expensive, thus there limited use for when it was deemed necessary and the victory could be won shortly

 

[grandad1982]

It was related to westernizing despite a province being a trade company province due to it containing your core. Such as the Goa event.

The Goa event was balls and just needed to die.

 

[PhroX]

The main reasons for not sending "doomstacks" halfway across the world were less logistical - armies mainly lived off the land in those days, and supply by sea was actually quite doable (more so than by land) - and more strategic. If a large portion of your army is on the other side of the world, your neighbours are gonna be drinking wine in your capital before you can get them back.

 

[yerm]

The problem is that falling behind is too routine, and westernizing too powerful. ROTW nations should not fall behind so much and so quickly. ROTW nations should not have it be such a given that if you can westernize you want to westernize. Things like the penalty being a scaling curve that gets worse over time, or the on time year being later so you tech later but don't actually pay more MPs for it, maybe a better idea I haven't thought of.

Maybe if westernization wasn't such a gimme and asians weren't punching bags in the 16th century we wouldn't need these kinds of poorly worded fixes?

 

[Wagonlitz]

But when you sell, you lose core and claim

It has always been like that; or at least it also was in EU3.

To be fair, doomstacks were rarely used due to attrition and lack of supply and the regular uses for local armies. Only rarely, and at great cost was a nation able to actually send a massive armies, but the logistics were huge and pricey since they would need enough supply to support.

As a general rule, before professional armies like Prussia soldiers were made up from the peasants and town-dwellers and as such they were limited to be used locally, those few who were willing or had no obligations at home (field, workshop or simply a nagging wife) were paid for their services by going beyond the local area they were required to defend or be ordered around in. The cases suggested had an increase of professional soldiers, but they still had to eat, so looting and supplying was necessary and supplying a doomstack properly was expensive, thus there limited use for when it was deemed necessary and the victory could be won shortly

But that was what I said; it wasn't feasible to send large armies around the world and didn't happen until modern times.

 

[Quaade]

It has always been like that; or at least it also was in EU3.

But that was what I said; it wasn't feasible to send large armies around the world and didn't happen until modern times.

Misread you then