"You can no longer westernize if a western nation owns one of your cores"

[Krajzen]

but you still can if you own a core in a western nation



Well... Poor Amerindians... What was the reason for this change?

 

[Quaade]

Too easy to westernize, has been complainted about for awhile like the protectorate can´t westernize was also introduced... Not much of the world were westernized in the 1820... However I do seem excited to see which impact this will have along with other changes that should make this less of a nerf.

If making nations having less options to westernize, like said statement, their neighbours would have an equally hard time to westernize of them. They do seem to adjust, both subject relative power and make non-western nations more inclined to become allies when neighbouring western nations, so it might be more difficult for western to conquer all of India

 

[Krajzen]

Too easy to westernize, has been complainted about for awhile like the protectorate can´t westernize was also introduced... Not much of the world were westernized in the 1820... However I do seem excited to see which impact this will have along with other changes that should make this less of a nerf.

If making nations having less options to westernize, like said statement, their neighbours would have an equally hard time to westernize of them. They do seem to adjust, both subject relative power and make non-western nations more inclined to become allies when neighbouring western nations, so it might be more difficult for western to conquer all of India

Yeah I also thought it is too easy to westernize for Africa/Asia but that's a weird way to implement that, hits Amerindians (who are in very bad position already) much harder.

And it should be a bit easier for western nations to conquer anything in India - seriously, I've never seen them achieve anything here

 

[tom025]

(but you can if you own their core)



Well... Poor Amerindians... What was the reason for this change?

Are you sure ? Could you provide a link please Krajzen ?

If its true I will just be mad since I play amerindians a lot.

@Quaade : We're not talking about india or China but Amerindians ! Have you ever played with them ?
I always found it difficult to westernize as an Ameridians because when you try to do it. you're just gang bang by all western europe. Try them you will see

Sorry if I seem harsh but Im just pissed off, Wiz said "Natives were overnerfed, we buffed them" .... I have big doubts now

 

[Krajzen]

It is in the middle of bugfixes.

- Added tooltips for military leaders recruitment in the army window
- Fixed a number of broken rivers in Guyana, China and Madagascar.
- A country can no longer receive support for independence while it has a truce with its overlord.
- Nations that have the same top overlord or that have a close relationship (such as a personal union) will now have automatic military & fleet access to each other.
- Disallowed sending two alliance offers on the same day.
- Military & fleet access between two nations will no longer persist if they become subject and overlord.
- You can no longer westernize if a western nation owns one of your cores (but you still can if you own a core in a western nation).
- Cloud Savegame names no longer preceded by "save games"
- Reinforcing the last ~100 troops of an army is no longer free
- Fixed bug that caused reinforcement costs to be zero if you have no manpower after reinforcement is done.
- The Heresy! event will no longer trigger for the Papal states.
- Missions to reclaim Mecca and Jerusalem will not be available unless you have range to reach them.
- Fixed bug that caused the Casus Belli icon to appear in the diplomatic actions list even when there was no CB available.
- Subject Interaction Event 29, Legitimacy Questioned, can now only trigger between monarchies.

 

[Quaade]

And it should be a bit easier for western nations to conquer anything in India - seriously, I've never seen them achieve anything here

No... they haven´t, but did they in real-life in that timeframe?... Perhaps the added use for protectorates (they are buffed for player some say) should make it have a larger effect there...

We're not talking about india or China but Amerindians ! Have you ever played with them ?
I always found it difficult to westernize as an Ameridians because when you try to do it. you're just gang bang by all western europe. Try them you will see

Thought it was a name suppose it´s the natives you refer to... Yup did them, in north america and gained the achievement. A while ago though... Have been planning on taking some central and southern.

However I westernized by bordering, and in my recent Ayyot... something in Indochina, I established colonies in America and westernized by being neighbour to a colony, so it´s not impossible to do so...

They did however buff them in another sense, since they don´t create colonial nations when they have a capitol in a colonial region

 

[tom025]

It is in the middle of bugfixes.

Thank you and thats just stupid ...

@Quaade : Of course its not impossible to do but its will be more difficult since as a native american you have more tendancy to loose territory than gaining some.

Anyway I will wait the patch tommorow but that doesnt sound good im afraid

 

[Quaade]

Of course its not impossible to do but its will be more difficult since as a native american you have more tendancy to loose territory than gaining some.

That´s a fault of the game I have been lobbying against for some while, mostly since I hate myself for falling prey for it too. Should really nerf CB and make the different uses more specific. A conquest war that goes well should take 5-7 provinces, but should still be abnorm. Peace should be made more around 50-70 % with only 3-4 provinces... Also by emphasising more on the different uses, like actually using trade war, cleansing or insult CB for it´s uses rather than pretext to to gain land you can´t claim (and still take too much, since you are in the war anyway). Wrote a whole bunch about it in suggestions...

My point is, limiting the loss, would benefit all and only hurt the blobbers, where the impiralism CB can save their day in the later years. But personally I would rather they made the game more enjoyable to lose a war without feeling it´s all lost, than imposing limits and penalties to prevent blobbing.

Also, IMO, tech should be overhauled to not be restricted by western nations... Just once 1/20 I want to discover america with a high-tech collection of tribes, seems to be possible with RNW now But my point is, yes the evolving of natives did happen somewhat due to westerners going there, but couldn´t there be some way other than blobbing for natives and waiting to lose some land, in order to westernize so you can kick butt? They even removed naval and maritime ideas from natives if I remember correctly... Again some limit to stop exploit, but without adding something instead... would have done it differently, if it could work... Which would bring back ships too

I´d rather they make tribes go through difficult steps, like the reforms, starting with a very steep modifier to make them fall back at first. The steps should each remove some of this modifier, and it should perhaps be linked more to being small... Thinking about using the doom feature to make them small and then reforming society culturaly and intelectually. If done right, by a good player, they should be able be near equal to western when they land in 1/5 but in all other games, even with players they should still be some backward to them.

Would even like to link the westernization proces to their actual level they are behind, so more technerdy natives will have it easier... But also make the risk of the process more severe

 

[qwertzuiop]

Okay, so this would reduce "chain-westernization" tremendously - except for nations bordering Western colonies without getting attacked. So e.g. Mali will still be able to westernize early if Portugal colonizes parts of the West African coast but doesn't attack them, while Morocco cannot westernize unless they reconquer Ceuta. I don't know what to say about this change, if I'm playing a Western power I will like it because I don't have to worry about the countries I attack westernizing off my border, if I'm playing a non-Western country I won't care because it won't affect me, but in general I think that the rest of the world should be stronger rather than weaker for game balance purposes.

(I never played as a native so when I said it won't affect me, I wasn't referring to native starts here)

 

[jesias]

I don't think it will change much. You usually border land that you give up so it will just delay westernization by 3 years.

 

[Promanco]

Amerindians are hurt a lot more by no longer being able to seize a colony out of their colonial range...

 

[jrk264]

Maybe there used to be a bug where you could westernize if a western nation had one of your cores even if you otherwise wouldn't be able to westernize? Otherwise this seems like an illogical nerf.

 

[AlphaSonic]

Just renounce to your core and Westernize?

 

[Tiax]

This seems like a stop-gap to prevent AI from westernizing after getting mostly eaten by western invaders. Human players can just renounce and be on their merry way. Hopefully this gets revisited in the future, as it's hardly the westernization balance I think people were hoping for.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Just give up the cores which western nations have taken. Sure is annoying, but it is an easy way around this. (Coming in next patch^TM: You can no longer give up cores in western nations if you aren't western yourself.)

 

[Korashy]

Just give up the cores which western nations have taken. Sure is annoying, but it is an easy way around this. (Coming in next patch^TM: You can no longer give up cores in western nations if you aren't western yourself.)

I was thinking exactly that when I first read it. Abandon those cores baby!

 

[Quaade]

Maybe there used to be a bug where you could westernize if a western nation had one of your cores even if you otherwise wouldn't be able to westernize? Otherwise this seems like an illogical nerf.

It was in the bugfixes, but didn´t think it was a bug... It was clearly in the files of the games and it was stated in Wiki...

Just give up the cores which western nations have taken. Sure is annoying, but it is an easy way around this. (Coming in next patch^TM: You can no longer give up cores in western nations if you aren't western yourself.)

Hehe... last line made me laugh a little 1.16: Natives cannot expand or have an army

 

[Krajzen]

Just give up the cores which western nations have taken. Sure is annoying, but it is an easy way around this. (Coming in next patch^TM: You can no longer give up cores in western nations if you aren't western yourself.)

Lol I forgot about that... Though to be honest I am not sure if such simple way around will work, I think pdox expected that 'exploit'.

 

[RobRoy3]

I don't think it will change much. You usually border land that you give up so it will just delay westernization by 3 years.

Yeah. I'm not sure why this is perceived as such a big deal.

Just give up the cores which western nations have taken.

Why would giving up the core be necessary? Is there an interpretation issue, here? I guess one could interpret Wiz's language as saying you are prohibited from westernizing "if a western nation owns one of your cores". But I think the more logical interpretation is that you are no longer eligible for westernization simply by virtue of the fact that "a western nation owns one of your cores".

I suspect the change had little to do with Amerindians but was more targeted at things like South Asian Indians and others who lived in Trade Company regions; bordering western cores never worked in a trade company region, so the primary way to westernize was to share a core. But bordering should still work in the New World. It's Indian, Chinese, and Africans who'll have a harder time westernizing. But, for them, seizing a western core province is sometimes within the realm of possibility, whereas it's often quite far-fetched playing as Native Americans.

 

[Zelius]

Yeah. I'm not sure why this is perceived as such a big deal.

Why would giving up the core be necessary? Is there an interpretation issue, here? I guess one could interpret Wiz's language as saying you are prohibited from westernizing "if a western nation owns one of your cores". But I think the more logical interpretation is that you are no longer eligible for westernization simply by virtue of the fact that "a western nation owns one of your cores".

I suspect the change had little to do with Amerindians but was more targeted at things like South Asian Indians and others who lived in Trade Company regions; bordering western cores never worked in a trade company region, so the primary way to westernize was to share a core. But bordering should still work in the New World. It's Indian, Chinese, and Africans who'll have a harder time westernizing. But, for them, seizing a western core province is sometimes within the realm of possibility, whereas it's often quite far-fetched playing as Native Americans.

This. I was JUST about to write this very thing. So trade company provinces will no longer allow their former owners to westernise, but American Natives still can when they share a border.