You call that a Holy Roman Empire
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I still think joining provinces to the empire should reduce centralisation of the owner...
I would not nerf the HRE directly - the possibility of unifying it was actually really there.
What was also there, and is at the moment not yet implemented properly, is the stark awareness in all european major courts of what an united HRE would mean.
So I would not touch the HRE mechanic per se, but I would modify the AI of medium countries in the HRE and major european countries outside it so that they try to split electors away from an active emperor.
HRE countries should have a higher probability to vote against the final HRE motions if they are medium-sized and/or protected by meaningful alliances. That is, their decision should not be balanced on relations alone, but also on the balance of power.
And please, PLEASE, make the patch savegame compatible. Or else!
Why would an elector vote against a reform if they would believe that forming the HRE would improve their situation? It's the same for the EU, while it's disadvantageous for any power outside the EU, major powers in the EU would still vote in favour of reforms that would improve their situation, even when they would have to give away some of their sovereignty.
IRL the electors jealously guarded their power and wouldnt have been overly keen to end the elector system for example. Sure it may be good for your country to become part of a larger stronger one, but it also makes the rulers of the country less powerful. Surprisingly not everybody did things out of the goodness of their heart or what was best for their people.
62 years is nothing, did it in the 1420's as Burgundy on Normal. Was surprisingly easy to get the last 2 decisions pushed through. Just release a few HRE nations, get >80% authority and poof the HRE is gone. My infamy danced on the limits for a while though, 23/25 due to my legitimacy falling from 100 => 0 when I formed the HRE for some reason.
Yes. The EU, with all its quirks, is a democratic institution promoting peace and freedom for its citizen. Joining is an advantage for the people. Moreover, after WW2 (almost) every european government realized that they couldn't stride the world alone anymore. So instead of being vassals of a foreign power without a saying on matters, they choose to have a small say within a pooled sovereignity project promoting the hard-learned values of Europe. Voluntarily pooling sovereignity has become one of such values itself, and is seen as one of the key changes which make the EU the only post-modern (or post-westfalian) institution in the world today.
The UN comes close, but it does not qualify since it does not have real membership requirements or enforcement powers - the spirit may be post-modern, but the implementation is westfalian.
The HRE was driven by concepts like glory, faith, nobility and power, which have nothing to do with people and a lot to do with the self-promotion of a feudal ruling class in perennial competition. It is actually the codification of such competition which came to be know as the westfalian international order, after a peace which de facto buried the HRE.
Yes, forming HRE should definitely be more challenging. And because of the power struggles and randomness which comes from the flow of history, it shouldn't be achieved every time even if the player makes good decisions. (However EU3 models chaotic flux quite well.)
What 'post-modernism'? What do you mean by that? The only association which comes to mind regarding post-modernism is people trying to be more clever than they are. The term implies it itself.
The things you mention valued by HRE strike me as much better than some consumerism driven post-modernism. They value the development of human character - an individual's personality - instead of getting richer simply for the sake of getting richer like the EU does.
Of course the EU rhetoric claims that getting richer is for the sake of improving the quality of people's lives. However the EU's treatment of poorer country's (import tolls and such) speaks against it.
To go off-topic and heat a potential debate or not. Oh well, I didn't mention these things first.
What 'post-modernism'? What do you mean by that? The only association which comes to mind regarding post-modernism is people trying to be more clever than they are. The term implies it itself.
The things you mention valued by HRE strike me as much better than some consumerism driven post-modernism. They value the development of human character - an individual's personality - instead of getting richer simply for the sake of getting richer like the EU does.
Of course the EU rhetoric claims that getting richer is for the sake of improving the quality of people's lives. However the EU's treatment of poorer country's (import tolls and such) speaks against it.
Anyone who thinks the EU is a good thing, should watch a few videos of Nigel Farage, Europe's Ron Paul eheh.
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ideo_view_count&suggested_categories=25&uni=3
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ideo_view_count&suggested_categories=25&uni=3
I wonder why not apply the same restriction for vassalizing/annexing the members as there is for just vassalization. What I mean is - as emperor you won't be able to vassalize more than 3 province countries (or even 2) and same goes for the later step - annexation.
Actually, the lack of election could be a reflex of what happened in reality: the Habsburgs becoming the owners of the Imperial title since the XVth Century until the HRE's dissolution. But nobody voted it, it was more like an habit created from authority.
Maybe the acts should be more, more variated, and harder to be approved. One of them could be an act calling to arms all HRE members when you go to war, still not vassals, but forced allies. If they refuse, the Emperor would gain casus belli, but loose authority and prestige.
Maybe the acts should be more, more variated, and harder to be approved. One of them could be an act calling to arms all HRE members when you go to war, still not vassals, but forced allies. If they refuse, the Emperor would gain casus belli, but loose authority and prestige.
I tried to form the Empire as Burgundy, but it backfired. Either because I had high infamy, or because my new ruler had a weak claim, every vote shifted to Bohemia, and I had already done all the work with the reforms for them. They made the Empire hereditary, and there was nothing I could do about it.
Then, when they passed the motion to vassalise the members, I declined and got into a war with them, but also with all the others who declined - not the ones that had accepted. I presume that is a bug.
However, now that there were no more electors, it was ridiculously easy to dismantle the empire. I rushed in with a doomstack and assaulted their capital, and was able to push the dismantle button. By that time my armies were reduced to shreds by attrition, and were at 0 morale, and Bohemia had a large army in the bordering province, but since the mechanics are what they are, there was nothing they could do about it. I even got them to release a couple of their vassals in the peace deal.
Now, Bohemia retained all the rest of their 20 or so vassals, but without the imperial reforms and advantages, they are really weak, and the Empire is in the process of being eaten up by every neighboring blob.
By the way, France was very easy to tackle by Burgundy now. All it needed was one war, and they was reduced to an easily managable size.
Edit: I also noticed a few other bugs. For instance, my mission to get Cologne to vote for me was not cancelled when the Empire became hereditary. I think there were some more bugs with the mission system related to the new features, but I can't recall atm.
Then, when they passed the motion to vassalise the members, I declined and got into a war with them, but also with all the others who declined - not the ones that had accepted. I presume that is a bug.
However, now that there were no more electors, it was ridiculously easy to dismantle the empire. I rushed in with a doomstack and assaulted their capital, and was able to push the dismantle button. By that time my armies were reduced to shreds by attrition, and were at 0 morale, and Bohemia had a large army in the bordering province, but since the mechanics are what they are, there was nothing they could do about it. I even got them to release a couple of their vassals in the peace deal.
Now, Bohemia retained all the rest of their 20 or so vassals, but without the imperial reforms and advantages, they are really weak, and the Empire is in the process of being eaten up by every neighboring blob.
By the way, France was very easy to tackle by Burgundy now. All it needed was one war, and they was reduced to an easily managable size.
Edit: I also noticed a few other bugs. For instance, my mission to get Cologne to vote for me was not cancelled when the Empire became hereditary. I think there were some more bugs with the mission system related to the new features, but I can't recall atm.
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But if you have enough authority those forces would be wise to shut up.
I agree that 1420 is way too early. Maybe authority is overrated and should be made harder to earn?
I agree that my comparison is not completely correct, but I was talking about a situation where the HRE has a very high authority.
I also want to mention that the acquisition of reform from a former emperor is strange ... austria makes all reform and got into a personal union right before the hereditary and i'm the ersatzkaiser.
I don't think that electors would be willing to follow me as abiding as they would follow another habsburg candidate.
I don't think that electors would be willing to follow me as abiding as they would follow another habsburg candidate.
A LOT harder to earn... i think u shouldn't be able to unify it before 1700
and even then, it should be a rare thing... it should happen maybe one time every 3 or for games...
By contrast I think the new HRE is perfect. The empire game is so much fun... it's almost sad when the seventh reform passes and it's over.
The only problem is that now there's no reason to play anyone but the HRE.
The only problem is that now there's no reason to play anyone but the HRE.