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This just continues to illustrate the lack of concern the American military had for Japanese civilians versus German civilians.

At least the British weren't hypocrites -- they firebombed any of their enemies that they could, not just the ones who weren't European.
 

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Originally posted by Heliumgod
This just continues to illustrate the lack of concern the American military had for Japanese civilians versus German civilians.

At least the British weren't hypocrites -- they firebombed any of their enemies that they could, not just the ones who weren't European.

Don't overreact. The Chemical Corps was pushing the use of chem agents throughout the war in all theaters. That was their job, let the President know what was possible and prudent in their given speciality. Without seeing the specific document referred to in the article its hard to judge what conclusions can be drawn.

A couple of red flags though in the way it was written. Initially, it gives the impression that the US government decided to use chemical weapons the same day it decided to use the A-Bomb. However, later on the article seems to hint that what we're really looking at is an internal Chem Corps document. Those are two very, very different things.

Always be skepical when such "evidence" circulates around the same time someone writes a book on the subject. I, and many others, knew about the Chem Corps pushing of chemical warfare for a long time. It wasn't a secret. Their attitude is in no way surprising given the context of their postion. I'll go back and reread the article to see if I missed anything.
 

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I reread the article and have not changed my opinion. The original title concerned the "possible" use of chem agents in Operation Olympic. And from the context it appears this is simply a contingency plan put together by the Chem Corps. But that was their job. To provide contingencies to the decision makers. The only evidence in the article of a US decision to "commit genocide" is the assumption, unsupported by any facts, made by the author.

Read the actual document first. And read between the lines of those who draw conclusions without providing support for their proposition. That leads to fewer unnecessary flame wars on who is the most evil nation on earth. (Of course, we all know who that is :D ).

If anyone finds an actual copy of the document mentioned, please post it so we can all judge based on the source material. I don't think it's impossible the US government could have made such a decision, it's just that the article writter didn't support his claim.
 

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Mac -- are you claiming that the United States regarded Japanese civilian casualities as seriously as German civilian casualities? If so, I respectfully disagree. The mass fire bombings of Japanese cities vs. the strategic bombing in Germany is a very fine illustration of the fact that U.S. military planners felt that German civilian casualities must be avoided, while Japanese civilians were being firebombed.

In reading your postings, I can certainly agree that it is not necessarily so that the U.S. was considering 'genocide' against the Japanese. But the facts do indicate that the United States had far more concern for German civilians than Japanese civilians.

As for the chemical corps.... where is the contigency plan that calls for massive gas attacks on German civilian populations...? Was there such a thing...?
 

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Originally posted by Heliumgod
Mac -- are you claiming that the United States regarded Japanese civilian casualities as seriously as German civilian casualities? If so, I respectfully disagree. The mass fire bombings of Japanese cities vs. the strategic bombing in Germany is a very fine illustration of the fact that U.S. military planners felt that German civilian casualities must be avoided, while Japanese civilians were being firebombed.

In reading your postings, I can certainly agree that it is not necessarily so that the U.S. was considering 'genocide' against the Japanese. But the facts do indicate that the United States had far more concern for German civilians than Japanese civilians.

As for the chemical corps.... where is the contigency plan that calls for massive gas attacks on German civilian populations...? Was there such a thing...?

No, I didn't make such a claim. Racism against the Japenese in WWII is a well known fact. However, that lends no credence to the opinion of the article writter whatsoever. He made a pretty outrageous claim without giving the first bit of support.

And of course, you do remember Dresden (Slaught Haus Funf). And as you admit, the Brits were rather indiscriminate. There may have been contingencies in Germany, I don't know. But there were US Chem Units stationed throughout the ETO.
 

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Originally posted by MacGregor


No, I didn't make such a claim. Racism against the Japenese in WWII is a well known fact. However, that lends no credence to the opinion of the article writter whatsoever. He made a pretty outrageous claim without giving the first bit of support.

And of course, you do remember Dresden (Slaught Haus Funf). And as you admit, the Brits were rather indiscriminate. There may have been contingencies in Germany, I don't know. But there were US Chem Units stationed throughout the ETO.

And then there was the famous accident at Bari...
 

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Bari just illustrates how everybody was ready for chemical warfare during WWII.

But preparations were mostly contingency planning in case the other side used them. Stalin was afraid enough of German use of poison gas to ask Britain for a firm commitment to use chemicals herself in case Germany used them against the USSR.

The Allies were concerned the Germans might use poison gas against the Normandy landings and had made extensive preparations in case it actually happened.

There are few instances however of a side actually planning for first use of chemicals.

The only ones I can think of are Britain in case of a German invasion, and the US in the Pacific. It had been proposed to use gas to flush the Japanese from their cave redoubts at Iwo Jima, and of course there is the instance mentioned in the article in the first post.

The Japanese apparently used gas grenades during the battles for Imphal and Kohima, but if true it apparently was an accident.

I've read that the Soviets claimed the Germans had used gas at Sevastopol, but there isn't any evidence that I know of.

Speer mentions diverting precursor chemicals from nerve gas production in his memoirs, as well as a definite reluctance to use them within the Wehrmacht.

All in all, it seems that while everybody was ready for chemical warfare, the US stands out as the only country to have planned extensively for it.

The US army was also the only one to have a chemical service on an equal footing with infantry, artillery, etc... which both illustrates the strong US interest for chemical warfare and explains why it planned for it so extensively since a full-blown service could hardly satisfy itself with making fog on the battlefield.
 

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Originally posted by Sire Enaique
All in all, it seems that while everybody was ready for chemical warfare, the US stands out as the only country to have planned extensively for it.

The US army was also the only one to have a chemical service on an equal footing with infantry, artillery, etc... which both illustrates the strong US interest for chemical warfare and explains why it planned for it so extensively since a full-blown service could hardly satisfy itself with making fog on the battlefield.

I don't know about your assumption that the US was the "only country to have planned extensively for it." Given the horrors of WWI, I doubt that any of the major combatants failed to "extensively plan" for the use of chemical weapons in the event the other side used it. I have nothing to back this up but it is just a reasonable (at least I think so) assumption.

I would hardly classify the Chem Corps as being on "an equal footing with infantry, artillery, etc." Most Chem Corp units were attached to Infantry Divisions and as their artillery was compatible with conventional munitions, they were de facto used soley in that role. Its not like they had a hundred thousand soldiers whose sole responsibility was to deliver chemical weapons. It was more like they had a hundred thousand soldiers who acted as conventional artellirists but who were trained in the use of Chem weapons if called upon. Again, I imagine that all major combatants had such forces.

The fact is the US did not use chemical weapons. There were people in the military who wanted to, some probably overzealously. But the article originally cited sheds little new light on the situation despite the bold claims of the US preparing for "genocide." That may in fact be what the referred to documents said, but if that is so, the author muddied matters in the way he presented the material. Reading what he actually said about the documents, it would appear most likely they simply were contingency plans. But we won't know for sure until we actually read them. My only complaint about the article is that if the author is going to make sensational allegations (which admittedly could be true) he should at least clearly back up his claim with excerps, clarification, etc. I came away from the article with the feeling the author misunderstood the difference between a contingency planning document and a decision to implement such a plan.
 

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Originally posted by MacGregor


I don't know about your assumption that the US was the "only country to have planned extensively for it." Given the horrors of WWI, I doubt that any of the major combatants failed to "extensively plan" for the use of chemical weapons in the event the other side used it. I have nothing to back this up but it is just a reasonable (at least I think so) assumption.

I would hardly classify the Chem Corps as being on "an equal footing with infantry, artillery, etc." Most Chem Corp units were attached to Infantry Divisions and as their artillery was compatible with conventional munitions, they were de facto used soley in that role. Its not like they had a hundred thousand soldiers whose sole responsibility was to deliver chemical weapons. It was more like they had a hundred thousand soldiers who acted as conventional artellirists but who were trained in the use of Chem weapons if called upon. Again, I imagine that all major combatants had such forces.


Let me start by stating that I'm not passing moral judgment on the US army. I do not see chemical weapons as particularly immoral or inhumane. Shell fragments or even bullets can inflict extremely slow, painful and gory death and they're accepted as "human" ways to kill.

This said, the primary mission of the US chemical corps WAS chemical warfare. Its 107mm mortar was specifically designed to fire gas shells - even if it could also fire HE if needed.

Of course, since the US army didn't use chemical weapons in WWII, they never performed their intended mission, and since it would have been a waste of trained manpower and equipment not to use them, they were used as regular mortar troops, if a bit heavy on the smoke-laying side of the job.

Even if it is quite true that every major country had huge stocks of chemicals, the US was the only one with a service dedicated to chemical warfare. In all other armies there were of course chemical warfare specialists, but that duty usually devolved to the engineers and the artillery, if not the medical service.

In other words, the US army was probably the best prepared to wage chemical warfare, and the only one to posess a service which would have it as its primary mission, and thus would be encouraged to formulate plans for it.

It is therefore quite natural that references regularly crop up of suggestions to use chemical weapons in US planning: the US army had officers whose very job it was to make such suggestions.

This can probably be linked to the very special experience of WWI the US army had.

Until the summer of 1917, chemical weapons were used only sporadically. From then on, however, the Germans made increasing use of them, to the point where by Spring, 1918 (when the AEF started active operations) 30-40% of the shells they fired were gas shells.

All the other armies fought for three years in an environment where chemical warfare was a marginal - albeit potentially very dangerous - factor.

The US army that fought WWII really originated from the AEF of 1917-18, and the AEF was born in a tactical environment were chemical weapons were everyday's reality and a very important factor.

So it is little surprising that it decided to fight the next war with an organization adapted to that tactical environment.

Yes, the US army was quite unique in this regard. In other armies, should chemical weapons be used again, well, it would just be shells with different markings to fire for gunners.


Regarding the Strategypage article, I agree with you that it isn't at all clear on the matter of wether or not the use of chemical weapons had been cleared by the President.

But I have no doubt at all that had such use been cleared, detailed plans would have been already available to implement it.
 

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I agree completely with your last post (I assume you checked the facts, I would have never known the artillery was 107mm mortors). My only problem, as I've said twice, is that the article writter made some rather bold pronouncements that a casual observer could easily be led to believe (the US approved genocide). However, the substance he chose to include in the article did not support his pronouncements. He either needed to do a better job of presenting the facts (Truman could very well have said "gas the SOBs," the writer just didn't show it) or he needs to tone down his rhetoric. I think he either was trying to push a book, advance his own career by making a headline that someone like Matt Drudge might pick up on, or he really didn't know the difference between contingency plans and the approval of those plans. The last option does not put him in much better light: he could have had the conclusion right but failed to write a coherent article to substantiate those conclusions. In any event, sloppy journalism is the reason so many urban legands are born. Ten years form now someone will vaguely remember that article and start a "Why did the US want to commit genocide on the Japenese" thread.:D
 

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Originally posted by Heliumgod
This just continues to illustrate the lack of concern the American military had for Japanese civilians versus German civilians.

At least the British weren't hypocrites -- they firebombed any of their enemies that they could, not just the ones who weren't European.

The Allied military leadership was not particularly concerned with German civilian casualties. It was concerned with the impact of senseless destruction on the relatively large segment of public opinion that was concerned with civilian casualties.

But an equally large segment of Western public opinion held what can only be defined as "racist" views of the Germans - and had no qualms about killing them off.

The point made in the Strategypage article is simply that democracies are as likely to committ atrocities if they feel the need as any dictatorship.

And it is a thinly veiled warning to Iraq that using weapons of mass destruction against the US is a very, very, very bad idea.
 

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Originally posted by MacGregor
I assume you checked the facts, I would have never known the artillery was 107mm mortors

I mostly wrote from memory actually:rolleyes: .
The 107mm mortar is quite well-documented since it saw widespread use in WWII... except when it comes to its original function which is usually mentionned but very seldom detailed.

The fact is, there is very little material about chemical warfare lying around. Armies are quite reluctant to open their archives on that subject and the current crisis has led to many previously open sources being closed dur to concerns about dissemination.

It's about the same situation as with nuclear weapons. The information IS actually available, because we're talking about stuff that scientists have known for decades now and it's pointless to classify it, but you have to dig for it, get bits of info from here and there and piece it together.

Both fields (especially CW) also tend to be regarded as "Black Arts" unfit for gentlemanly people and since nuclear weapons are so much more powerful as WMD's and have captured public interest few historians are willing to invest time in researching CW.

Apparently, the conventional wisdom within the military is that CW can be a useful tactical tool but make military operations so much more complicated that the genie is better left in the bottle by tacit mutual agreement - think of them as the military equivalent of a 1% tax write-off that'd take doubling the accounting & legal staff to take advantage of.
They're only worth using as WMD's against unprotected civilians - and that one takes very special political circumstances - or when the ennemy can't retaliate in kind, in which case only them will see their task getting much more complicated. But even that might get the idea to spread and few people have been enthusiastic about it since WWI.

Anyway, the mere fact that some people felt justified to produce such staff studies as the one mentionned in the article seems a good reason to "thank God for the atom bomb".
 

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To me the point is that Japanese civilians were the targets of this proposed plan, and it causes me to wonder whether there were chemical corps plans targetting German civilians as well.

Of course I am aware of the Chem Corps. that were deployed in the ETO, but these troops were trained to retaliate against a military chemical assault, or to launch a chemical assault against _MILITARY_ targets... not Ma and Pa Deutschlander.

"Genocide" is a strong word but the plan does seem to exhibit certain genocidal _tendencies_...
 

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Sire Enaique,

you would have driven your point more easily if you had written "4.2 inch mortars" (as they were known), instead of "107mm mortars". They were quite extensively used with HE, BTW.
 

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Couple of tidbits, of italy a ship containing Chimical agents was hit and a cloud of lethal fumes hung ofshore for a time, it was touch and go wether a retalation was orerd because it was thought the germans had used gas on the landing beaches.

1 tank was destroyed by a gas grenade in burma iirc, other than that the japs in china are the other users.

I have seen the original order to execute allied pows in the event of an invasion, i have not seen the authorisazation of a chimical attack in conection of an invasion of japan, i have seen qoutes from it though.

Hanny
 

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Heliumgod: You're right, some Air Force Douhet fan must have contributed too.

The Japanese were commonly referred to as monkeys, rats, vermin, etc... in Allied propaganda. How do you kill vermin? you gas it. Easy.

It may sound a bit provocative, but has anybody here read Grossman's On Killing? on how killing your fellow human gets easier the larger the physical and psychological distance? And on how conditionning the troops not to think of the ennemy as human helps? Allied propaganda didn't describe the Germans as animals, and the purpose of bombing German cities was supposed to be "de-housing" and destroying the population's morale, not killing people - even though that's a highly hypocritical standpoint.

Pirate: I guess I must have played ASL too much:p sorry if I got you confused.
Of course they fired a lot of HE! Who was to let large calibre mortars lie unused?

Hanny: are you referring to the Bari incident?
And while you're here, could you help me with a little mistery?

Hubert Johnson in Breakthrough mentions a lethal agent derived from one of the German blue cross fillings against which German filters were ineffective that was planned to be used in 1919. He further mentions it being used against the Bolsheviks at Arkhangelsk (he cites his source as Foulkes memoirs). Churchill too speaks in The Gathering Storm of such a gas.

Yet after 1919 it seems to vanish from existence. Was it all disinformation?
 

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Not sure, its something id need to look up, i think it was anzio, the theatre chemical stocks were waiting to come ashore and got hit from the air, the US thought gas was deployed on the beaches and got ready to retatliate, only to find out it was there own stocks wafting around.

I have no knowledge of the mystery, sorry, ww1 is something im rather poor on.

I can give you link to find articles, though.

http://www.findarticles.com/PI/index.jhtml

Did you try NARA?

Hanny
 

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Originally posted by Hannibal Barca
Not sure, its something id need to look up, i think it was anzio, the theatre chemical stocks were waiting to come ashore and got hit from the air, the US thought gas was deployed on the beaches and got ready to retatliate, only to find out it was there own stocks wafting around.

I have no knowledge of the mystery, sorry, ww1 is something im rather poor on.

I can give you link to find articles, though.

http://www.findarticles.com/PI/index.jhtml

Did you try NARA?

Hanny

That's Bari all right, Hanny...