Yet another WW2 could Germany have won if... thread

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Kovax

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What IF:
Canaris was sacked, early on.
What IF:
They decided to change the enigma codes every so often, just in case.
What IF:
Hitler didn't station ~1/4 million soldiers in Norway the whole war, after the Brits did a little clandestine mission & sent him a nastygram.
What IF:
They didn't decide to SHIP the 2nd Panzer Div. out of Greece, and it didn't get SUNK by British subs (again, thanks Enigma codes)
What IF:
That German bomber hadn't made a nocturnal navigation error & bombed that English town, which the Brits thought was intentional so they bombed Berlin, right when Hitler was giving a speech, so he took it personally. Thus the whole 'Battle of Britain' turned into a total fiasco, more about killing innocent people, rather than actually destroying the RAF, it's RADAR sites, airfields, etc.
What IF:
The Germans weren't total fools and didn't invade the Netherlands. Just like in WWI, they could've potentially procured some rare materials & resources from their pals, the Dutch. Not to mention, this (and how it was done - fire bombing Rotterdam, e.g.) was not well-received on the world stage. "Why are we invading the Netherlands?" -Even the German military had no idea. Still a big mystery, to this day. I think it was an administrative error, at the OKW.
What IF:
Hitler gave assurances to Franco that he would help defend Spanish Morocco if necessary, and Spain took Gibraltar. Then w/ my ingenious plan to zip through COASTAL Anatolia, go down & extract the Brits from the Middle East + Egypt. Then they'd be unable to hold on the in the Med., which would free up tremendous assets for use in other theaters of combat.
What IF:
The Italians actually took proper precautions to not let the majority of their fleet get sunk, immediately upon joining the war.


All this, plus more if I sat & thought for a bit, all prior to 1941.
Germany DID change the enigma codes every few weeks, and the British had to develop an early computer system to help re-decipher the new codes each time. Then the Germans threw in a serious monkey wrench and added a couple of extra rotors, which gave the Brits fits for a couple of rather vulnerable months before they came up with the answer.

Regardless of Hitler's assurances, I think Franco realized that Spain was in no condition to go back onto a war footing. Short of threat of imminent invasion, I don't think he'd have budged.
 

fredinno

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They didn't decide to SHIP the 2nd Panzer Div. out of Greece, and it didn't get SUNK by British subs (again, thanks Enigma codes)
One division wouldn't have made a large difference, even in 1941.

The Germans weren't total fools and didn't invade the Netherlands. Just like in WWI, they could've potentially procured some rare materials & resources from their pals, the Dutch. Not to mention, this (and how it was done - fire bombing Rotterdam, e.g.) was not well-received on the world stage. "Why are we invading the Netherlands?" -Even the German military had no idea. Still a big mystery, to this day. I think it was an administrative error, at the OKW.
The German-Belgian border was heavily defended due to the experiences of WW1. The Germans did manage to overcome them, though. Another reason is that the Netherlands was a potential invasion source for the Axis, and it was unlikely to export anything more that wasn't on their European landmass (because the British would probably threaten to occupy the DEI if they did, and convoys all the way as far as the DEI wasn't going to realistically get past the Royal Navy.)
 

Culise

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If the Battle of Britain goes against the British, they simply commit the reserves. Even at the peak of the attacks on the southern airfields, the 13 Air Group in Scotland and north England remained as a reserve force in being. The Germans underestimated it precisely once when they attempted a raid on northeast England from Norway; the result was a turkey-shoot. They were unable to neutralize the targeted airfields, and the most-damaged radar station struck during the attack was operational again by the next morning. Perception of the Battle of Britain on both sides both during and after the campaign, I think, tended to suffer from a systematic tendency to underestimate British force and overestimate German force; the Germans believed they could simply snow the British under with superior force, and the British had a bit of a pessimistic air after the fall of all of their continental allies. The British command in this period tended to underestimate the losses the Germans were suffering under the continuous assault, while Goering positively euphorically (not just from the morphine) proclaimed the imminent demise of the RAF at every turn. After the war, of course, everyone adored the story of the plucky underdog fighting the perfidious Nazis to a dead stop.

In addition to that covered by other posters above, the Dutch aren't likely to be long for the peace even if the Germans bypass them again. Even if the Dutch don't enter the war in 1940, they likely still end up in the war by the end of 1941 when the Japanese sail south. An unoccupied and peaceful Netherlands is still almost certain to join the oil embargo against Japan, whether voluntarily or by coercion; the power disparity between the Netherlands and the US is simply too great even with the motherland secure, and everyone with interests in the Far East is both concerned by this point about Japanese ambitions in China and unreasonably optimistic about their willingness to cave under economic pressure. The Germans won't get much in trade due to British interference, and once the Japanese invade for the oil, the Germans will be faced with a independent Dutch base of operations right on their border that's already fighting alongside the British and Americans in the Far East. At that point, assuming it has not already, it will certainly occur to everyone in the OKW that an independent Netherlands is a dagger pointed right at the German heartland so long as it remains an independent co-belligerent alongside the UK against a German ally.

Same with Franco; Kovax is precisely correct there. Franco was still fighting Republican resistance fighters for a decade after the civil war officially ended. He was massively reliant on food imports from Portugal and Argentina to keep the population fed; even with this support, something like 200 thousand people died between 1939 and 1945 as I recall. Even this line of food and other supplies such as fuel would have been cut short had he entered the war formally. The Spanish army simply could not be maintained under arms for any longer; he immediately cut it down to a quarter of its size, and even the second expansion after the Fall of France was constrained by hard financial limits. The ludicrous demands Franco made as the price for his entry into the war were, if anything, too modest. Germany simply could not afford to feed and arm all of Spain, especially when it was busy feeding and arming itself; Spain only offered a far larger point of vulnerability.

Similar problems hold for coastal Anatolia. British naval superiority in the Eastern Mediterranean and Turkish hostility (unless you're presupposing they join the Axis somehow, in which case we would likely end up with a second Yugoslavia where those who sign the pact return to find themselves no longer in power) will make any "quick zip" neither quick nor zippy. Infrastructure is problematic, and the major problem with the Turkish army of the period, a lack of arms for the soldiers, will be quickly rectified by Lend-Lease sailing right up the Persian Gulf and up the Tigris and Euphrates to eastern Anatolia. While the British won't be able to save Istanbul or the Aegean coast, they can move up forces from India (just as they would do against the 1941 coup) and the Levant to oppose the Germans in the rough terrain of the east. The necessary diversion of forces to the Middle East in order to conquer not only Turkey, but everything as far as Suez also gives the Soviets more time to repair the damage caused by the Great Purges in their NCO ranks, a fear that Hitler of all people is rather keen to avoid. A quick sprint along the coast that bypasses the Anatolian Highlands is perhaps even worse than a full-in invasion to subdue all of Turkey: it gains little in the way of reduced manpower requirements and makes the entire supply line along the coastal strip vulnerable to raids both from the interior and from the coast.

The Italian Regia Marina, I think, you give too little credit. The Battle of Taranto entirely failed in its primary aim to cut Italian convoys across the Mediterranean. The Regia Marina did not lose the majority of their operating force in the opening shots. The heaviest losses at Taranto and the only disproportionate losses as a proportion of the total fleet were in the battleships, of which only one (Conte di Cavour) was out of commission for more than half a year. Taranto bought the British precisely half a year of operational freedom, but the Regia Marina continued to operate aggressively and thus kept the Mediterranean contested until fuel shortages, rather than any sort of decisive battle, shut down most of their offensive operations. A few torpedo nets at Taranto will not save the Regia Marina from a slow and painful death; only massive infusions of fuel will do that.
 

yerm

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If the Battle of Britain goes against the British, they simply commit the reserves. Even at the peak of the attacks on the southern airfields, the 13 Air Group in Scotland and north England remained as a reserve force in being. The Germans underestimated it precisely once when they attempted a raid on northeast England from Norway; the result was a turkey-shoot. They were unable to neutralize the targeted airfields, and the most-damaged radar station struck during the attack was operational again by the next morning. Perception of the Battle of Britain on both sides both during and after the campaign, I think, tended to suffer from a systematic tendency to underestimate British force and overestimate German force; the Germans believed they could simply snow the British under with superior force, and the British had a bit of a pessimistic air after the fall of all of their continental allies. The British command in this period tended to underestimate the losses the Germans were suffering under the continuous assault, while Goering positively euphorically (not just from the morphine) proclaimed the imminent demise of the RAF at every turn. After the war, of course, everyone adored the story of the plucky underdog fighting the perfidious Nazis to a dead stop.

In addition to that covered by other posters above, the Dutch aren't likely to be long for the peace even if the Germans bypass them again. Even if the Dutch don't enter the war in 1940, they likely still end up in the war by the end of 1941 when the Japanese sail south. An unoccupied and peaceful Netherlands is still almost certain to join the oil embargo against Japan, whether voluntarily or by coercion; the power disparity between the Netherlands and the US is simply too great even with the motherland secure, and everyone with interests in the Far East is both concerned by this point about Japanese ambitions in China and unreasonably optimistic about their willingness to cave under economic pressure. The Germans won't get much in trade due to British interference, and once the Japanese invade for the oil, the Germans will be faced with a independent Dutch base of operations right on their border that's already fighting alongside the British and Americans in the Far East. At that point, assuming it has not already, it will certainly occur to everyone in the OKW that an independent Netherlands is a dagger pointed right at the German heartland so long as it remains an independent co-belligerent alongside the UK against a German ally.

Same with Franco; Kovax is precisely correct there. Franco was still fighting Republican resistance fighters for a decade after the civil war officially ended. He was massively reliant on food imports from Portugal and Argentina to keep the population fed; even with this support, something like 200 thousand people died between 1939 and 1945 as I recall. Even this line of food and other supplies such as fuel would have been cut short had he entered the war formally. The Spanish army simply could not be maintained under arms for any longer; he immediately cut it down to a quarter of its size, and even the second expansion after the Fall of France was constrained by hard financial limits. The ludicrous demands Franco made as the price for his entry into the war were, if anything, too modest. Germany simply could not afford to feed and arm all of Spain, especially when it was busy feeding and arming itself; Spain only offered a far larger point of vulnerability.

Similar problems hold for coastal Anatolia. British naval superiority in the Eastern Mediterranean and Turkish hostility (unless you're presupposing they join the Axis somehow, in which case we would likely end up with a second Yugoslavia where those who sign the pact return to find themselves no longer in power) will make any "quick zip" neither quick nor zippy. Infrastructure is problematic, and the major problem with the Turkish army of the period, a lack of arms for the soldiers, will be quickly rectified by Lend-Lease sailing right up the Persian Gulf and up the Tigris and Euphrates to eastern Anatolia. While the British won't be able to save Istanbul or the Aegean coast, they can move up forces from India (just as they would do against the 1941 coup) and the Levant to oppose the Germans in the rough terrain of the east. The necessary diversion of forces to the Middle East in order to conquer not only Turkey, but everything as far as Suez also gives the Soviets more time to repair the damage caused by the Great Purges in their NCO ranks, a fear that Hitler of all people is rather keen to avoid. A quick sprint along the coast that bypasses the Anatolian Highlands is perhaps even worse than a full-in invasion to subdue all of Turkey: it gains little in the way of reduced manpower requirements and makes the entire supply line along the coastal strip vulnerable to raids both from the interior and from the coast.

The Italian Regia Marina, I think, you give too little credit. The Battle of Taranto entirely failed in its primary aim to cut Italian convoys across the Mediterranean. The Regia Marina did not lose the majority of their operating force in the opening shots. The heaviest losses at Taranto and the only disproportionate losses as a proportion of the total fleet were in the battleships, of which only one (Conte di Cavour) was out of commission for more than half a year. Taranto bought the British precisely half a year of operational freedom, but the Regia Marina continued to operate aggressively and thus kept the Mediterranean contested until fuel shortages, rather than any sort of decisive battle, shut down most of their offensive operations. A few torpedo nets at Taranto will not save the Regia Marina from a slow and painful death; only massive infusions of fuel will do that.

I wholeheartedly disagree on just the point regarding the Dutch. If the Netherlands are left independent but surrounded by the Axis they will behave like a nation on a knife's edge. Switzerland's level of cooperation is a minimum.

I cannot see them joining an embargo on Japan in their position. They are going to be terrified of Hitler, not FDR. Meanwhile the British are going to interdict any attempt to get resources from the DEI to Europe anyway, while Germany will annex if they supply Allies - they will want the Japanese market. The USA objections are low on the stack of worries.

Meanwhile this avoids the TRUE answer to why Germany invaded. They needed the loot.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Herbert West

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Graf Zeppelin

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How many dive bombers would you like?
How many Battleships have been sunk in 1939/1940 due to divebombers ? Most divebombers had not even the payload to sink or serious damage them at this point. Thalia and Kilkis been the first ones severly damaged by divebombers in 1941 and that was in port if I remember right.

Yes, they got vulnerable during the war and been obsolete in 1945, Claiming they been obsolete at the start of the war is ridiculous. It was a gradual thing to happen, not overnight. The most visible thing was when Japan entered the War and sunk/diabled them left and right in late 41. As a gun platform they still been not obsolete at this point but increasingly vulnerable to air assaults.
 
Last edited:

Graf Zeppelin

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What IF:
That German bomber hadn't made a nocturnal navigation error & bombed that English town, which the Brits thought was intentional so they bombed Berlin, right when Hitler was giving a speech, so he took it personally. Thus the whole 'Battle of Britain' turned into a total fiasco, more about killing innocent people, rather than actually destroying the RAF, it's RADAR sites, airfields, etc.
I suggest reading a book and not drawing knowledge from a movie.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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I wholeheartedly disagree on just the point regarding the Dutch. If the Netherlands are left independent but surrounded by the Axis they will behave like a nation on a knife's edge.
The Dutch allowed British aircraft to fly over their territory into Germany from the begining of the war.Also the Dutch Queen was vocaly anti Nazi (cant blame her) The Political situation wasnt that clear like in WW1 for example.
 

DoomBunny

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How many Battleships have been sunk in 1939/1940 due to divebombers ? Most divebombers had not even the payload to sink or serious damage them at this point. Thalia and Kilkis been the first ones severly damaged by divebombers in 1941 and that was in port if I remember right.

Yes, they got vulnerable during the war and been obsolete in 1945, Claiming they been obsolete at the start of the war is ridiculous. It was a gradual thing to happen, not overnight. The most visible thing was when Japan entered the War and sunk/diabled them left and right in late 41. As a gun platform they still been not obsolete at this point but increasingly vulnerable to air assaults.

Battleships were certainly getting on. But I wouldn't say they were obsolete in 1939; even in 1945 they certainly had their uses as gun platforms and in fighting off other BBs.

Moreover, one has to look at it from the perspective of interwar naval planners. Naval airpower in 1939 was a very sketchy prospect still; aircraft weren't very advanced, and particularly for powers focused their naval development outside the Pacific (i.e., everyone but the USA, Japan, and to a lesser extent Britain) there's little to suggest land based air can't to an extent fill the hole better (more advanced aircraft, cheaper basing requirements). The superiority of the carrier over the battleship wasn't an outright truth at that point, and it only looks that way with our hindsight. Even that in itself may be a product of the circumstances of the war; the two major potential battleship clashes were the Pacific (USA vs Japan) and the Mediterranean (UK vs Italy), and in both cases BBs were relegated to a background role as much by circumstance as anything else (i.e., the USA having to rely on carriers due to BB losses). There's also the risk to consider; if you don't build BBs and everyone else does, then how can you be sure you have a counter to other BBs, how can you match their ability to provide shore bombardment, and what do you do if through bad luck or otherwise it proves possible for BBs to close the distance before they can be sunk, and they go on to trash a carrier fleet at close range?

One can also point to times when BBs sank carriers, or came close to doing so; Scharnhorst sank Glorious early in the war, whilst even later on at Leyte the Japanese almost got a chance to cause havoc.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Battleships were certainly getting on. But I wouldn't say they were obsolete in 1939; even in 1945 they certainly had their uses as gun platforms and in fighting off other BBs.

.

Thats exactly what I said. You should have quoted someone else with that. Or was this meant as as support of my point ?
 

AtlanticFriend

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Militarily, I don't think it would have been possible to cross the Channel and ferry enough troops ashore without gaining durable air supremacy first - and even then I don't see how the Royal Navy could have been held at bay. Thus I think the only path to a victory over the United Kingdom in 1940 would have been a political one, if Britain had endured the same level of desperation its continental allies had suffered.
 

yerm

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The Dutch allowed British aircraft to fly over their territory into Germany from the begining of the war.Also the Dutch Queen was vocaly anti Nazi (cant blame her) The Political situation wasnt that clear like in WW1 for example.

I mean, all total speculation, but I blame Germany for the obvious response. They were attacked and Britain was their pal, keeping an eye on colonies, opposing/avenging the offender. If Germany doesn't attack, terror bomb, and plunder, then the Netherlands is in a state of fear instead of anger. They will want to avoid being conquered and look out for their own interests.

Or maybe they just thumb Germany, it's believable, but then they have the same end result anyway. I wouldn't expect it though. Everyone else bordering Hitler played nice or got invaded (USSR both).
 

Graf Zeppelin

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I mean, all total speculation, but I blame Germany for the obvious response. They were attacked and Britain was their pal, keeping an eye on colonies, opposing/avenging the offender. If Germany doesn't attack, terror bomb, and plunder, then the Netherlands is in a state of fear instead of anger. They will want to avoid being conquered and look out for their own interests.

Or maybe they just thumb Germany, it's believable, but then they have the same end result anyway. I wouldn't expect it though. Everyone else bordering Hitler played nice or got invaded (USSR both).
You overestimate German/Japanese cooperation. Infact pushing the Netherlands into the Allies made Japans desire of the DEI more difficult.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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I don't think Japan would attack the DEI if they are getting oil from there peacefully (or no US embargo).

Why would they? The Embargo is an intentional act designed to force Japan to DoW to restore the flow of oil into the Empire. Or halt military action. Their choice.
 

Andre Bolkonsky

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whilst even later on at Leyte the Japanese almost got a chance to cause havoc.


Taffy 3 actually works against your argument that battleships in line of battle had value at the end of WWII. It is an argument that proves the value of radar-guided 5" ring guns vs. optically aimed heavy caliber armament of the Imperial Japanese Navy in the greatest World of Warships replay ever. And, it is direct proof of the skill and professionalism of the US Navy at all levels during WWII.

Line of Battle was rarely seen in WWII between capital ships. However, battleships are not obsolete during WWII, their role simply changed. Nor were they obsolete during Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, Persian Gulf I, or today. But they will never be built like that again. The only four relvelant ships left today are the Iowas. Their great asset are those gorgeous 16" naval rifles and their extreme speed that allows them to easily keep up with a carrier task force. Their problem is the extreme manpower required to keep them operational at sea for long periods of time.
 

thedarkendstar

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Taffy 3 actually works against your argument that battleships in line of battle had value at the end of WWII. It is an argument that proves the value of radar-guided 5" ring guns vs. optically aimed heavy caliber armament of the Imperial Japanese Navy in the greatest World of Warships replay ever. And, it is direct proof of the skill and professionalism of the US Navy at all levels during WWII.

Line of Battle was rarely seen in WWII between capital ships. However, battleships are not obsolete during WWII, their role simply changed. Nor were they obsolete during Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, Persian Gulf I, or today. But they will never be built like that again. The only four relvelant ships left today are the Iowas. Their great asset are those gorgeous 16" naval rifles and their extreme speed that allows them to easily keep up with a carrier task force. Their problem is the extreme manpower required to keep them operational at sea for long periods of time.
The Manpower requirements cant be as massive as one of the new carriers can it?
 

Culise

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The Manpower requirements cant be as massive as one of the new carriers can it?
The Gerald R. Ford has a crew complement of over 2600, thanks to advancements in automation and design since its Nimitz-class predecessors. The Iowa had a complement of over 2700. They're about on par, which superficially would hypothetically raise the question of which supercarrier we decide to cancel in order to crew an Iowa were we to reactivate them. More practically, of course, if we need to activate the Iowas, we'll probably also need the supercarriers so it won't be an either-or. In addition, we're already building the infrastructure to support the Fords as well, while the infrastructure to support the Iowas has been greatly reduced ever since we stopped operating them.

EDIT: Whoops, I grabbed the wrong numbers for the Iowa-class battleships. They cut the complement down by a thousand around the 1980s modernizations, so it should only require 1600-1800 to operate them. My error, and it should balance it a bit more nicely.
 
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Easy-Kill

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And to add to others, let's not forget the impact that the large battleships had during the Normandy campaign. Warspite wore out most of her main guns during op Neptune!