Yet another crash..

[tywinzo]

Error: Received signal 11
./ck2(_Z15sigsegv_handleri+0x24)[0x8bda8d6]
linux-gate.so.1(__kernel_sigreturn+0x0)[0xf777bd30]
./ck2(_ZN10CCharacter13RemoveConsortEPS_+0x15)[0x84ca38d]
./ck2(_ZN10CCharacter13CheckForDeathEv+0x398)[0x84bb502]



EDIT.. version 2.2.1

 

[PeterSkager]

Reported it to the programmers. I think we have a hum of what's the problem, so thanks for the report! But just for future reports, try to be more thorough with the reproduction information provided

 

[tywinzo]

Sorry, but I am being exactly as thorough as I feel like. It is not out of ignorance, but out of not wanting to put the effort in. I am actually quite annoyed at having to post 3-4 threads on various crashes. I gave you the money, and on some level you need to hold up the deal on your end - I actually paid for the game (and bought quite a few DLCs). I do not work for Paradox, so I'll put whatever effort into the bug report as I wish. Consider yourselves blessed for having your users do the testing for you and actually giving you free stack trace, even if that is all it was. Maybe I should ask you to be more thorough with your release QA? Or lower the price since the quality is shit?

Anyway, I know that you ask simply because you need that kind of info, but please do not insult people by demanding some kind of effort. As a hint for the future, you should probably say something like, "we appreciate your input, and we would be even more grateful if you could also provide XYZ if you ever consider contributing a bug report next time". You may or may not get it depending on my mood.

 

[richvh]

Hint: if you want the bugs fixed, you have to put in enough effort to identify, to the best of your ability, exactly where and when the bug is occurring. The Paradox team is not going to be able to magically identify the bug without that level of effort. You may not like it, but that's the facts of life. If you can't/won't put in that level of effort, why even bother posting the bug report?

 

[tywinzo]

No, I don't actually. As a simple counter proof: Paradox is free to hire more QA, search for bugs more extensively and then fix them.

 

[richvh]

And this is supposed to identify the bug you encountered... how?

 

[Kalarhan]

No, I don't actually. As a simple counter proof: Paradox is free to hire more QA, search for bugs more extensively and then fix them.

well, its your problem. Either you help them HELP YOU, or you can keep complaining about how things dont work.

Smart huh? :blink:

 

[tywinzo]

You do not see the connection? Okay.

 

[tywinzo]

well, its your problem. Either you help them HELP YOU, or you can keep complaining about how things dont work.

Smart huh? :blink:

No - it is not my problem. They are to deliver the game. Their problem.

 

[Kalarhan]

No - it is not my problem. They are to deliver the game. Their problem.

Keep saying that while YOU CANT PLAY. I will be here playing my game and helping out when somethings goes wrong.

Wonder who is having fun? People playing or people complaining? I cant say!

 

[Kalarhan]

but out of not wanting to put the effort in

Easy fix. Just mail your computer to them and wait until they send it back to you (in a few ... weeks ?) with the fix in. Oh dont forget to pre-pay for the mail so they can return it to you.

 

[donnyb83]

All sarcasm aside. Aggravation at the state of the release of this latest expansion is totally understandable. The fact that this user went beyond by tossing in a stack trace (whatever that is), which got a "Reported it to the programmers. I think we have a hum of what's the problem, so thanks for the report!" from PI. Then he turns around and asks for more information in future reports. The dissonance from both the "thanks", then a "do better next time" instead of just a "thanks" for something the user isn't being paid to do can understandably piss someone off. The users of this game should not be expected to happily test this game for PI. That being said i totally understand tywinzo's complaint. For those that will say the "do better next time" wasn't meant as a complaint towards tywinzo. Just remember that it isn't exactly what someone says, it's how the person who is hearing it interprets the comment's meaning.

 

[richvh]

Just remember that it isn't exactly what someone says, it's how the person who is hearing it interprets the comment's meaning.

That cuts both ways, of course. The tone of tywinzo's reply to PeterSkager is not the sort of thing that will motivate the QA team to fix the problem.

 

[tywinzo]

I love the game and what Paradox has done. Not so much for the strategy part of the game, but for the historical side, roleplaying side and the fact that it runs on linux. I've thanked them before when they have done good things, and in general I've kept a good spirit. I am also one of those who found the general threads about "omg my life is ruined" somewhat ridiculous (yet I accept the fact that some people have a stricter economy).

And for those who put the effort in and looked back at my commenting history, you'll see that not long ago I posted a quite extensive bug report with all kinds of tracing information, with save games, comments and theories etc in it. It took me probably 2-3 hours out of a Saturday to gather that up and finding the steps necessary to reproduce. Because I like the game. But the repeated crashes made me somewhat more annoyed and more annoyed. Yet I kept a good spirit and continued posting little reports. Because I like the game.

But now as a response to my perhaps somewhat sparse bug report (from which they actually *DID* gather enough information to get a good hint to solve the bug, as opposed to what was claimed), I got a "we expect more from you in the next bug report", as if I work for them. I am not going to get bashed for writing sparse bug reports, while in fact it is kind of their thing to do that work.

 

[zoidberg]

./ck2(_ZN10CCharacter13RemoveConsortEPS_+0x15)[0x84ca38d]

if you want the bugs fixed, you have to put in enough effort to identify, to the best of your ability, exactly where and when the bug is occurring.

Funny. I reported the exact same "RemoveConsort" bug in 2.2.0.6. I provided a save, and even a screenshot of the character with the broken concubine:

Not sure what else we should be doing to get stuff fixed?

 

[tywinzo]

That cuts both ways, of course. The tone of tywinzo's reply to PeterSkager is not the sort of thing that will motivate the QA team to fix the problem.

To some extent, you also get the tone back, which you gave yourself. I think the guy was perhaps trying to be nice, but in fact he wasn't certainly seemed to have the wrong idea about some things. If he didn't, then I withdraw my complaint. But I leave the remark that he should perhaps consider how he formulates next time (which I stated).

 

[donnyb83]

@richvh The ONLY motivation that matters for them to correct a bug is the fact that they are supposed to provide a COMPLETE WORKING PRODUCT. Playing nice with devs is not the users job. So the argument that you gotta be nice to get a fix is silly.

 

[richvh]

You don't necessarily have to be nice, but if you can't/won't provide enough information for them to reproduce the bug (which is all PeterSkager was asking for), you can't expect them to magically be able to fix it. And no, throwing more people into QA will not magically fix all the bugs, either. (Assuming that's even possible. A well known aphorism in programming is that the only bug-free programs are trivial. There's also the mythical man month problem, where committing twice the people to a project will not get it completed in half the time, or anywhere close.)

 

[donnyb83]

PeterSkager said that what was provided was enough to clue them into the problem. So his extra "next time do better" could be seen in a negative light. So I have no idea what you were trying to get across with that last msg. It's almost like we are talking about two separate things here.

 

[richvh]

Probably because they already had other, more informative, reports (such as zoidberg's.) That was my impression of Peter's post, at any rate.