Year 900 Scenario

[doktarr]

So I guess I will have to learn how to change the religion and all that myself, making the Jews so fierce seems a little wierd to me. Protestantism would go better for the Jews.

I'm getting tired of saying this, but I'll try one more time:

We can change the bonuses for each religion.

So reformed doesn't have to have a morale bonus. We can give a morale bonus to pagan. And so on, and so on.

The pagan religions could be divided into eastern and western (Scandinavia, Baltic, Slavic) religions. With the eastern ones just having the normal pagan mode.

If we did this, we'd have to decide which other religion to scrap.

 

[unmerged(24379)]

We can change the bonuses for each religion.

Oh, sorry, I did not know. But still, the fact that Christian nations cannot be annexed in one war (unless 1 province), and that pagans can, is that possible to change? (most preferable, I think everyone should be possible to annex in one war)...

If we did this, we'd have to decide which other religion to scrap.

There is actually much to use from.

Catholic = Catholic

Orthodox = Orthodox

Confusianism = Confusianism

Buddhism = Buddhism

Hindu = Hindu


And then we have the other ones, that do not enter history until after the reformation; Protestantism, Reformed and Counter Reformed Catholics. You say the Khazar Jews will get Reformed, but then there are still two more left, the best would probably be to make western paganism into Protestantism.

 

[doktarr]

Oh, sorry, I did not know.

It's cool; I'm glad I got your attention this time.

But still, the fact that Christian nations cannot be annexed in one war (unless 1 province), and that pagans can, is that possible to change? (most preferable, I think everyone should be possible to annex in one war)...

No, I don't think you can change that. But as you say, it would be more realistic in this time frame for every nation to be one-war-annexable. So I don't see this as a disadvantage. Also, with all the winter attrition in the north, 100% war scores are pretty rare anyway, at least for the AI.

Using pagan still allows christians to force-convert pagans, which is important, I think. Of course this also works if pagans get reformed, but it does NOT work if pagans get Orthodox, like in Mssr Roy's proposal.

There is actually much to use from.

Catholic = Catholic

Orthodox = Orthodox

We're going in circles here. I already responded to you on these issues in this post. Just to re-hash, we need to use protestant or reformed to represent Orthodoxy, because the great schism between the churches doesn't happen until 1054. Until then, the whole christian world will be Catholic.

Confusianism = Confusianism

Buddhism = Buddhism

Hindu = Hindu

And then we have the other ones, that do not enter history until after the reformation; Protestantism, Reformed and Counter Reformed Catholics. You say the Khazar Jews will get Reformed,

That's actually Mssr Roy's proposal; I proposed using Orthodox for Judaism.

but then there are still two more left, the best would probably be to make western paganism into Protestantism.

There's actually only one left, since counter-reformed Catholic is a state religion only (can't be a province religion). And, you forgot heresy, which pops up in both eastern and western europe in this timespan. So there's actually no spare religions. If you want to have two seperate pagan religions, you have to axe one other religion.

But why would we need to have seperate pagan religions anyway? There's only a couple states in the east that are arguably Pagan, and givng them a morale bonus and a tax penalty isn't likely to cause anything ahistorical to happen.

 

[unmerged(24379)]

It's cool; I'm glad I got your attention this time.

Well, I have a habit of reading through everything as fast as possible (bad habit made by reading schoolwork), thus creating a chance to miss alot

We're going in circles here. I already responded to you on these issues in this post. Just to re-hash, we need to use protestant or reformed to represent Orthodoxy, because the great schism between the churches doesn't happen until 1054. Until then, the whole christian world will be Catholic.

But what about letting the Orthodoxy wait for its arrival until 1054 then? And then letting Orthodox be Orthodox.

Also, with all the winter attrition in the north, 100% war scores are pretty rare anyway, at least for the AI.

A reason why non Scandinavian powers never invaded the Scandinavian peninsuela (at least not successfully) before Hitler. But the Scandinavians themselves did not really seem to have a problem with the winter, clothes were adjusted to the temperature of course. Another thing I would like to say is that the levels of fortress should be set to small as a maximum, all provinces except capital could start with no fortress at all, while capitals could have minimum or small, depending on what they were in history (exception of Constantinople - medium).

But as you say, it would be more realistic in this time frame for every nation to be one-war-annexable. So I don't see this as a disadvantage.

Pherhaps it is not a disadvantage if one wants to unite Scandinavia, but if the pagan civs are only AI, the Christian invaders will get an advantage. And by my opinnion, an (AI)English conquest of Norway, (AI)German conquest of Denmark (No I don't mean WWII) or (AI)Kievan conquest of Sweden seems quite unhistorical to me. But the Jews was not such a large factor at the time, so that they should get their religion at all just because of the Khazars, that is a little wierd (it was only the elite ruling class that were Jewish there anyway).

There's actually only one left, since counter-reformed Catholic is a state religion only (can't be a province religion).

There you said it, perfect for Khazar Judaism, provinces pagan, state Jewish.

 

[doktarr]

But what about letting the Orthodoxy wait for its arrival until 1054 then? And then letting Orthodox be Orthodox.

The idea is to use the game's built-in reformation engine to switch provinces over to othodox. You can only do that if you use Protestant or Reformed for Orthodox. Using one of those also allows Catholic and Orthodox natons to force-convert one another, which seems pretty realistic in this time span.

Another thing I would like to say is that the levels of fortress should be set to small as a maximum, all provinces except capital could start with no fortress at all, while capitals could have minimum or small, depending on what they were in history (exception of Constantinople - medium).

I agree.

Pherhaps it is not a disadvantage if one wants to unite Scandinavia, but if the pagan civs are only AI, the Christian invaders will get an advantage. And by my opinnion, an (AI)English conquest of Norway, (AI)German conquest of Denmark (No I don't mean WWII) or (AI)Kievan conquest of Sweden seems quite unhistorical to me.

Definitely, but it doesn't seem too likely. Events, leaders, and initial settings should put the Scandinavian nations heavily on the offensive for the first 100 years, so no AI nation should come close to conquering them. And after that, the AI would have converted to Christianity over 90% of the time, so the issue is gone.

But the Jews was not such a large factor at the time, so that they should get their religion at all just because of the Khazars, that is a little wierd (it was only the elite ruling class that were Jewish there anyway).

There's actually some debate on that issue, but most scholars now think it was a little more widespread than that. But I agree that only a small number of their provinces should actually be Jewish.

There you said it, perfect for Khazar Judaism, provinces pagan, state Jewish.

No no no. CRC is Catholicism, with different bonuses and penalties. If you made the Khazars CRC, then any provinces they converted would become Catholic. That doesn't work at all.

I suggested using CRC to represent Crusaders, who whould have slower tech, but better morale and more missionaries, than regular Catholics. This way we can replace the "Council of Trent" event with "the first Crusade".

 

[unmerged(24379)]

Definitely, but it doesn't seem too likely. Events, leaders, and initial settings should put the Scandinavian nations heavily on the offensive for the first 100 years, so no AI nation should come close to conquering them. And after that, the AI would have converted to Christianity over 90% of the time, so the issue is gone.

Well, as long as they does not end up getting swallowed by the Christians. By the way, they continiued to be on the "heavy offencive" after converting too, at least for another hundred years. After Christianity came it was a Danish conquest of England, a Norwegian attempt on the same, the isles in the west were subdued, Ireland was attempted conquered and a successful crusade was launched to the Holy Land. So it would not be wrong to put them on the offencive (maybe to a lesser degree) after converting either.

I agree.

Nice to hear There's something else I should suggest on that field. I think that in some provinces, fortress should be disabled (if it is possible), since some provinces at that time simply did not have anything not even in the 12th century: Examples for Scandinavia where forts can be disabled (Finnmark, Lappland, Västerbotten, Österbotten and Kola).

The idea is to use the game's built-in reformation engine to switch provinces over to othodox. You can only do that if you use Protestant or Reformed for Orthodox. Using one of those also allows Catholic and Orthodox natons to force-convert one another, which seems pretty realistic in this time span.

Then I guess pagan (well at least a northern paganism) could be Orthodox, just changing stats to better morale and lower taxation. They can have royal marriages with Catholics (does not look too strange to me).

 

[unmerged(23019)]

So, there's no way you're going with my alternate mapping? One other problem with Orthodox->pagan is that nobody can force-convert them, which is a nice feature for pagans to have.

No no no, pagans will be pagans as you suggested. Its just that the Jews will be Reformed, instead of "Gnostic Christian Heresies".

 

[doktarr]

No no no, pagans will be pagans as you suggested. Its just that the Jews will be Reformed, instead of "Gnostic Christian Heresies".

So, heretic will use Orthodox, then? Let's look at the defferences bettween reformed and orthodox for a second:

1) Reformed can pop out in a reformation event; Orthodox cant.

- this is irrelevant, but I'm trying to make a complete list here.

push

2) Reformed nations can force-convert, and be force converted by, Catholics and "Protestants" (i.e. Orthodox), while Orthodox cannot.

- I doubt the Khazars would have any interest in force-converting other nations. The idea of other nations force-converting them makes sense for both heretics and Jews, although probably more sense for heretics.

slight advantage to Orthodox->Jewish, Reformed->heretic

3) Reformed nations can only RM and diploannex Orthodox and Protestant ones, while Orthodox can also RM catholic, unless the EoT is triggered.

- irrelevant unless we use CRC for crusaders, like I mentioned. If we don't, it doesn't make sense for either one to have closer relations to Orthodox nations than Catholic ones.

The question is, which religion will be in a situation to be RM'ing Catholics more often.

even slighter advantage to Reformed->Jewish, Orthodox->Heretic, unless there can a heretic nation at some point, in which case Orthodox->Jewish, Reformed->heretic is better.

4) Muslims have one tolerance slider for Reformed and Protestant, and another one for Orthodox.

- If Orthodox is used for heretic, then muslim nations will be able to get away with minimizing that slider the whole time, without any relations getting hurt as a result. And from a purely aesthetic perspective, it seems better to have "non-Catholic Christians" on one slider and "Jews" on another, than "Orthodox/Jewish" on one slider and "Heretic Christian" on the other.

advantage to Orthodox->Jewish, Reformed->heretic

OK, so none of those reasons are that significant, but I think it makes more sense to use Orthodox for Jewish. Anyway, I'm (hopefully) done posting on this matter.

 

[unmerged(23019)]

Fine! Bah. Someone seems to have thought a wee bit hard about this

Orthodox-Jewish
Reformed-Heretic

 

[VPeric]

So, what are the chances of getting a playable beta anytime soon, because my winter holidays are ending??

 

[unmerged(23019)]

So, what are the chances of getting a playable beta anytime soon, because my winter holidays are ending??

As soon as I get the events for the majors done.

Speaking of which? How should the 907 revolts occur? Should China be able to choose between giving everyone independence or having massive RR? Or should we just settle for giving them massive RR?

Also is there anyway to influence where the AI may send its explorers? Because if I wanted Sweden, for example, to colonize north, and they sent a scripted conquistador with a random explorer to South America, that wouldn't exactly work.

 

[VPeric]

I think you can modify the .ai files to tell the AI where it should colonize. You surely can do so somehow, because I saw people disscussing things like that for AGCEEP .

 

[doktarr]

I think you can modify the .ai files to tell the AI where it should colonize. You surely can do so somehow, because I saw people disscussing things like that for AGCEEP .

Yep, that's the way. Also, you could give their explorers a short lifespan (only the length of their voyage) so that it's hard for them to overshoot their historical lands. Also, you can jack up the colonization penalties and kill the taxvalues so that colonizing in, say, South America is simply never worth it.

As far as an alpha release goes... if you have a playable game right now, with a working map and selectable nations and the religions in the right places, then I think you should get that out. As soon as you give the rest of us something like that, then we can all help get things going in terms of events and monarchs and revolters and fortresses and populations and taxvalues and so on. There's a lot of fine-tuning that has to happen, and there's no sense in making you do all of it.

 

[VPeric]

There's a lot of fine-tuning that has to happen, and there's no sense in making you do all of it.

That is exatly what I think! It is much easier to make some changes, see how it works and then propose it to be official, then go by ear and post 10 posts about a simple event. If you need hosting, I can provide it. I've got unlimited bandwidth

 

[doktarr]

Check out the new beta! Just about all the countries we need are already in there. No need to worry about tags at all, anymore. We can give most countries a tag that actually means what it should.

 

[VPeric]

Check out the new beta! Just about all the countries we need are already in there. No need to worry about tags at all, anymore. We can give most countries a tag that actually means what it should.

Well, then we can actually restart this mod, since it kinda died out...

 

[unmerged(15947)]

I hope you can it seems very interesting

 

[VPeric]

I hope you can it seems very interesting

Well, feel free to help us

 

[unmerged(15947)]

If I knew anything about modding EU2 or the time period I would

 

[VPeric]

If I knew anything about modding EU2 or the time period I would

That makes two of us . Seriously, when I first looked at this mod I knew nothing about modding and very little historical info, so I just participated in the disscussions . Eventually, I tried to make a monarch list based on the info provided, and I liked it so I made another . Then, they tried to learn me how to script some basic events, but I never actually scripted one... didn't have the chance.