Ye olde ot-forum games bar and tavern (place for ooc discussions)

[LatinKaiser]

We can try another game tomorrow, I guess.

 

[brovahkiin]

sounds good, I couldn't find the game either

 

[k-59]

I'd be up for EU4 MP after I post the update in the big.

 

[Wagonlitz]

It was mostly on a lark, like, hey, wouldn't it be fun to see how outrageously smart I am?

On a lark?

Also I doubt Aziz and MC took the actual test at a testing center, but rather used previous years SATs to practice at home. Also I think Aziz and MC aren't the average US student.

Still unless they are Einstein's they oughtn't be able to pass it in 5th grade if it had a proper level.

And the SAT basically tests logic and reasoning, so a lot of answers can be figured out with some intuition but knowing about more advanced concepts certainly helps.

Ah I see. Then I can see how you can pass it in 5th class; doesn't seem like a particularly good university admission test then though if it only tests logic and reasoning. Those two things are really important sure, but if you don't have a knowledge foundation you will get in trouble quickly in university.

I actually took it through a terribly elitist program for smart children.

Are you still in it? Also how smart? Mensa smart or just smarter than the average?
Also there is nothing wrong with being elitist. Not everybody is the same (hi jante law); and especially if you are elitist just because you like classical music as apparently has become commonly accepted...

The ACT science portion is really easy to take if you are good at reading, even if you've never taken the upper levels of science and even if you don't know a whit about sciencs (me).

Seems like a joke then. SO you can solve the problems if you just are good at reading the problem text?

I don't actually care that much about getting into a top college or whatever.

You probably should care more about it; isn't there a huge difference in quality between different universities in the US?

Oh no, I have a stronger opinion on an aspect of grammar then Wagon. The simultaneous singularity and plurality of you is the great flaw of the English language.

It indeed can be a bit problematic with the duality of you, but I don't see how not having that problem shows a language is superior.

The SAT and ACT aren't meant to be challenging (or if they are, then they're failing), they're meant to set a benchmark; a standard for college preparedness. Unfortunately, there is little proof that they actually do this.

Seems a really low benchmark though. I really don't see how I can be used for much; though given your unhomogeneous standards it probably is required.

 

[al-Aziz]

How well did you do? And did you time yourself to make sure you followed the section times?

I did. I've done really well. The score reports for all except science and math (and the SAT essay) have that little star that means you're ready to attend college. And I got close to perfect on reading.

It's immensely disturbing to me that there are college-bound seniors who did worse than I did. I think it would be awful to get your scores back and find you were the 2th percentile or something.

You mean a gifted program or something else?

And yeah, I remember breezing through that.

Yes.

 

[Wagonlitz]

I am open for EU4 MP tonight too.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Ftfy.

Also, I was referring to the comma. The grammatical comma is not in common use in English and is thus grammatically correct. To most English speakers, the sentence looks wrong and is harder to understand. Example:
This is the last night, that deadline will be at [time].
Due to the comma, one thinks the two parts are possibly independent clauses, without a proper conjunction- "this is the last night" and "that (as opposed to this) deadline will be at [time]".

Ah I see. I thought it was the implied that you thought confusing. Though still people finding the original statement confusing shows they aren't too used to implied thats.

 

[Cliges]

@Wagonlitz, the SAT isn't the sort of exam that one "passes"

 

[al-Aziz]

On a lark?
Still unless they are Einstein's they oughtn't be able to pass it in 5th grade if it had a proper level.

For fun.

I had a high reading/grammar level in 6th grade; they wouldn't have been able to test improvement in that. The math sections were harder, which is good. But otherwise, high school lit is just reading more diverse stuff, and not necessarily harder to comprehend or analyze.

Ah I see. Then I can see how you can pass it in 5th class; doesn't seem like a particularly good university admission test then though if it only tests logic and reasoning. Those two things are really important sure, but if you don't have a knowledge foundation you will get in trouble quickly in university.

Well, that's why you take actual high school courses as well for your transcript.

Are you still in it? Also how smart? Mensa smart or just smarter than the average?

Yes, and they use a test or an essay to get in. And I don't know my IQ, but it's not based off that.

Also there is nothing wrong with being elitist. Not everybody is the same (hi jante law); and especially if you are elitist just because you like classical music as apparently has become commonly accepted...

Elitist has a connotation of stuffy, pretentious, self-satisfied bunk. The kids are nice enough, but the director likes to go off on tangents about how speshul and gifted we are. It gets really obnoxious really quickly.

Seems like a joke then. SO you can solve the problems if you just are good at reading the problem text?

Yes, but it took too much time, and if I'd taken science classes it would have been quicker.

It is, imo, a better test than one which exclusively tests knowledge. You can brush up on knowledge, but you cannot improve understanding.

You probably should care more about it; isn't there a huge difference in quality between different universities in the US?

Nah, not as much as you might think. I'll be fine wherever I go as long as it's not juvie or something.

Seems a really low benchmark though. I really don't see how I can be used for much; though given your unhomogeneous standards it probably is required.

It's low because, disturbingly, some - actually most - seniors aren't as good at [testing for] these subjects as me, and they deserve to go to some college too.

 

[Wagonlitz]

@Wagonlitz, the SAT isn't the sort of exam that one "passes"

If you can do it in 5th grade then it cannot be too difficult.

 

[al-Aziz]

Ah I see. I thought it was the implied that you thought confusing. Though still people finding the original statement confusing shows they aren't too used to implied thats.

People who aren't used to English might find it confusing, yes.

If you can do it in 5th grade then it cannot be too difficult.

Or it means you are on the upper crust of test-taking talent. I got 96th percentile on the reading, which means that a horrifying 96% of ACT taking seniors find the test hard enough to score below me.

 

[happycats517]

Ah I see. Then I can see how you can pass it in 5th class; doesn't seem like a particularly good university admission test then though if it only tests logic and reasoning. Those two things are really important sure, but if you don't have a knowledge foundation you will get in trouble quickly in university.

Your grades and transcript are meant to show the curriculum you completed and the knowledge you have. The SAT is meant to show that you have the intellectual and academic basis to succeed in college and be able to handle the material as well as being a general test for college preparedness. Also, what Cliges said about passing. There's no way to fail an SAT unless you do so bad that they choose to not even score it (Which would mean having less than 200 in a section). You probably won't get into anything but a community college if your super score is an 800 but you technically didn't fail it.

Are you still in it? Also how smart? Mensa smart or just smarter than the average?

Assuming her gifted program uses the same standards as mine, an IQ of two standard deviations above the mean (130) is enough to get in although you can get in through other factors. I remember my school threw a big fit about me scoring a 129 on my test (although, I didn't answer some questions I knew the answers to, because I was 8 and no one told me why they were asking me these questions) and finally let me in because of grades and other stuff.

Yes

Not sure why you are calling it elitist. It's not elitist to help students challenge themselves and help them study and learn on a level they're comfortable with. Most teachers lack training to handle gifted students, so gifted programs help these students practice their abilities.

 

[al-Aziz]

It was just the attitude they had of superiority. It was a summer camp, btw.

 

[Cliges]

If you can do it in 5th grade then it cannot be too difficult.

The posters on this forum aren't especially representative examples.

 

[madchemist]

This, plus that kind of preparation is kind of silly. Once you're used to the format of the test, it's basically making sure you know the material.

Well, the essay (and writing portion in general) is rarely used and when it is, it's really only used as an extra essay in application. And the testers are so inconsistent on it that it's not hard to see why. I devoted a whole paragraph to identifying and refuting counter arguments in one of my essays and one tester wrote that I didn't acknowledge counter arguments.

Previous years SATs are available. Also I doubt Aziz and MC took the actual test at a testing center, but rather used previous years SATs to practice at home. Also I think Aziz and MC aren't the average US student. And the SAT basically tests logic and reasoning, so a lot of answers can be figured out with some intuition but knowing about more advanced concepts certainly helps.

Nah, I took the real thing. My dad was proctoring it at the local high school, wombat was taking it, and I decided to tag along because I had nothing better to do for three hours.


The essay is stupid. I hate that they added a subjective section like that to a test that was supposed to be an objective measure of basic mathematical and verbal reasoning skills.

 

[Cliges]

Nah, I took the real thing. My dad was proctoring it at the local high school, wombat was taking it, and I decided to tag along because I had nothing better to do for three hours.


The essay is stupid. I hate that they added a subjective section like that to a test that was supposed to be an objective measure of basic mathematical and verbal reasoning skills.

I can't remember, but are you allowed to discuss that?

I remember that the GRE makes you copy a paragraph about not discussing the contents of said exam with anyone.

That put me in a foul mood. Bad enough I had to waste a Saturday in a drab building in another enjoyable place like Roanoke, but they made me copy sentences, as if I were a naughty schoolboy.

 

[happycats517]

Yes, and they use a test or an essay to get in. And I don't know my IQ, but it's not based off that.

Ah, odd. I know when I took my test they didn't tell me it was an IQ test. I only knew because my mother told me and was quite upset when I came home and told her that some people at school asked me weird questions and I didn't answer some questions that I knew.

Elitist has a connotation of stuffy, pretentious, self-satisfied bunk. The kids are nice enough, but the director likes to go off on tangents about how speshul and gifted we are. It gets really obnoxious really quickly.

Ah, I see. My instructors were quite different. Both challenged us consistently and expected a lot out of us.

Yes, but it took too much time, and if I'd taken science classes it would have been quicker.

This. The ACT and SAT are both pretty easy if you have unlimited time, it's being able to think on your feet that is important.

Nah, not as much as you might think. I'll be fine wherever I go as long as it's not juvie or something.

I think the important thing about better schools is the opportunities you have. The major I'm in simply doesn't exist at many schools, if there's even another program like it in the country. Also if I went to a state school there's no way I'd be able to do all of the research and work with clubs that I've been able to do where I am right now. I don't feel like I'm killing people for opportunities because of all of the opportunities at my school combined with the small class size means everyone has a chance to find something they want to do if they look for it.

Or it means you are on the upper crust of test-taking talent. I got 96th percentile on the reading, which means that a horrifying 96% of ACT taking seniors find the test hard enough to score below me.

Keep in mind that it's quite different taking it at a testing center. My girlfriend in high school did really well on the practice tests but she actually did worse on the actual SAT because she freaked out and got nervous.

Nah, I took the real thing. My dad was proctoring it at the local high school, wombat was taking it, and I decided to tag along because I had nothing better to do for three hours.


The essay is stupid. I hate that they added a subjective section like that to a test that was supposed to be an objective measure of basic mathematical and verbal reasoning skills.

Ah, I stand corrected then. And agreed, the essay is quite subjective.

 

[al-Aziz]

I can't remember, but are you allowed to discuss that?

I remember that the GRE makes you copy a paragraph about not discussing the contents of said exam with anyone.

That put me in a foul mood. Bad enough I had to waste a Saturday in a drab building in another enjoyable place like Roanoke, but they made me copy sentences, as if I were a naughty schoolboy.

Ha, yeah, but it's like they're going to hunt me down and arrest me. <.< >.>

Also, you had to copy it down in cursive, which was problematic for me.

instructors were quite different. Both challenged us consistently and expected a lot out of us.

It was a summer camp, the actual GT and HGT teachers are quite good here.

Keep in mind that it's quite different taking it at a testing center. My girlfriend in high school did really well on the practice tests but she actually did worse on the actual SAT because she freaked out and got nervous.

I did take it at a testing center.

 

[Wagonlitz]

But otherwise, high school lit is just reading more diverse stuff, and not necessarily harder to comprehend or analyze.

You don't learn about the different epochs with their different themes and writing styles? Here high school literature (it was part of Danish class) most certainly wasn't just reading more diverse things. We were supposed to know the different writing epochs, what made them come about/vanish, the important parts of them, etc.

Well, that's why you take actual high school courses as well for your transcript.

I thought they didn't look at your actual courses due to the quality of them being hugely varying.

Elitist has a connotation of stuffy, pretentious, self-satisfied bunk.

Sure. Though there is nothing wrong with being in the top; also if you become elite just because you listen to classical music, don't like reality programmes, want actual deep discussions, etc. then the term elitist becomes a bit ridiculous anyway.

but the director likes to go off on tangents about how speshul and gifted we are. It gets really obnoxious really quickly.

That on the other hand sounds really bad; that is a really bad attitude to have and it appears she ought to be beaten with the jante law.

It is, imo, a better test than one which exclusively tests knowledge. You can brush up on knowledge, but you cannot improve understanding.

Testing understanding indeed is really important. But just testing understanding a 5th grader knows won't really give you a complete picture either. And there is a base amount of knowledge you need to have to succeed in university. If you for instance don't know how to differentiate or integrate then good luck passing any science courses.

as long as it's not juvie or something.

By juvie you mean youth prison right?

Nah, not as much as you might think.

I thought that universities in the middle of nowhere in the US weren't particularly good. But I could well be mistaken.

It's low because, disturbingly, some - actually most - seniors aren't as good at [testing for] these subjects as me, and they deserve to go to some college too.

That sounds really sad. Though the answer isn't to lower the quality of university, but to teach pupils better. And perhaps flunk more seniors. They can then take their classes again. Just lowering the level achieves nothing.

Or it means you are on the upper crust of test-taking talent. I got 96th percentile on the reading, which means that a horrifying 96% of ACT taking seniors find the test hard enough to score below me.

Now I don't know what reading means in the context of SATs; if it is what I think it is then it isn't outrageous to excel in that in 6th grade since you are expected to be an expert reader about that time.
Though on other topics it would be strange if you in 5th/6th grade could excel, unless the SAT has a rather low level. I am not dumb in any way (and my high school grade average broke the scale---i.e. was higher than the top grade), but I really doubt I would have been able to pass the high school exams and get accepted into university in 5th grade.

Your grades and transcript are meant to show the curriculum you completed and the knowledge you have.

But weren't there a problem with standard being far from homogeneous?

The SAT is meant to show that you have the intellectual and academic basis to succeed in college and be able to handle the material as well as being a general test for college preparedness.

Ah. Still seems a rather low bar. On the other hand some people obviously ought to be better; some of the people taking Calculus I and Calculus II (they are on first year for all science students) struggle with them and really aren't prepared for university---seriously Calculus I and II; the two biggest joke courses in the science department.

Also, what Cliges said about passing. There's no way to fail an SAT unless you do so bad that they choose to not even score it (Which would mean having less than 200 in a section). You probably won't get into anything but a community college if your super score is an 800 but you technically didn't fail it.

Then you can say you cannot fail an exam either, since you will get a grade anyway. Or will any score make you able to go to some college?

Assuming her gifted program uses the same standards as mine, an IQ of two standard deviations above the mean (130) is enough to get in although you can get in through other factors. I remember my school threw a big fit about me scoring a 129 on my test (although, I didn't answer some questions I knew the answers to, because I was 8 and no one told me why they were asking me these questions) and finally let me in because of grades and other stuff.

It is normal for schools in the US to test pupil's IQ? Here that would be unheard of and most people---including myself---don't know their IQ.

Not sure why you are calling it elitist. It's not elitist to help students challenge themselves and help them study and learn on a level they're comfortable with. Most teachers lack training to handle gifted students, so gifted programs help these students practice their abilities.

That indeed seems like a good goal. As long as it stays at that. We could learn something from that. Here smart pupils too often are held somewhat back. As an example: In 3rd grade we were having about the different word types (substantives, verbs, adjectives, etc.) and had to do some exercise books on the different types. Starting with substantives, then moving to verbs, and ending with adjectives. We were to do it in groups and I was together with another smart boy; when we finished the adjectives book most people hadn't finished substantives and nobody else had finished verbs. The teacher didn't have anything else prepared for us; cannot remember what we ended up being made to do, but she found something.

The posters on this forum aren't especially representative examples.

You are completely right on that; thought still being able to enter university in 5th grade either means the test is a joke or you are an Einstein. But I was apparently mistaken and they also look at other things.

The essay is stupid. I hate that they added a subjective section like that to a test that was supposed to be an objective measure of basic mathematical and verbal reasoning skills.

Essays in general are stupid as exams; the grading of them always is completely random and unfortunately for me the year I graduated high school the graders decided that the good students were to get bad grades, and the bad students were to get good grades. And I am not joking. It was like that all over the country; completely ridiculous.

The major I'm in simply doesn't exist at many schools, if there's even another program like it in the country.

They don't have psychology most places in the US?

because she freaked out and got nervous.

Which is a general problem about exams. I know people who are really good and really understand the things you are supposed to, but just get really nervous in the artificial environment of an oral exam. Which is why I really like the way several of the lecturers do exams on the master level where emphasis isn't really put on the exam, but rather on you having understood things.

 

[Wagonlitz]

Ha, yeah, but it's like they're going to hunt me down and arrest me. <.< >.>

So you aren't by law allowed to talk about the content of the test after the test has finished?

Also, you had to copy it down in cursive, which was problematic for me.

Seems a strange requirement. Sure inclined handwriting looks nice, but at least here we have moved away from it. It isn't even taught in most places (I didn't learn it; instead I learned "formskrift" which also has all the letters hanging together, but not the elaborate loops); just like how written fraktur went extinct in the late 1800s. Writing styles change.