Ye olde ot-forum games bar and tavern (place for ooc discussions)

[npstr]

One of the problems that trans people face is that they're put in danger when they use the bathroom that corresponds to their biological sex. They can be attacked or harassed. And, with all due respect, it is not really your job to tell people where to go to the bathroom, especially when they could be endangered. This is not something the trans community is making an issue; it's conservatives pushing back on something that has been done without any problems for years.

I respectfully request that you do adequate research before commenting on issues like these.


This is a good idea, but too often other people are not willing to use the way you request and it's not safe to do so. Or, on your licenses and other legal documents, your old name can't be changed, and requesting a different name to someone will result in danger of being hurt or even murdered.


Typically, trans people are not trying to hit on someone at higher rates than the general population. And as mentioned it can be life-endangering to reveal your sex. It is not "just common courtesy"; since when has someone told you about their genitals before hitting on you?

Again, I request that you use a less dismissive tone. These are real issues that can result in threats to lives.

Overall this sounds like a pretty backwards country you live in. My advice if one finds himself born in such one would be to move, some societies need longer to be changed than a lifetime.
Other than that nothing you said here sounds like it isn't handled by the law in western countries.
And noone needed to tell me about their genitals so far (their wetness might have been mentioned), since those always looked like what was expected.

 

[Cliges]

I have just one question: if gender is a social construct (as I have heard leftists claim), than how can transgender be a thing?

Believing in social constructs doesn't make them any less "real", does it?

 

[Dr.Livingstone]

I have just one question: if gender is a social construct (as I have heard leftists claim), than how can transgender be a thing?

Y'know, this is actually a question I've had for a really long time. Beauvoir isn't the type of lady who strikes me as being wrong on this point.

 

[LatinKaiser]

Believing in social constructs doesn't make them any less "real", does it?

Didn't your parents ever explain the harsh realities of the world to you once you lost all your baby teeth?

 

[al-Aziz]

I have just one question: if gender is a social construct (as I have heard leftists claim), than how can transgender be a thing?

Thank you for finally asking a good question!

Well, there's no real consensus on this, but the answer is probably something incorporating aspects of both ideas. According to the site linked above, hormones in the second trimester result in noticeably male or female brain structures. So there is some evidence for a child's preferences for femininity or masculinity or neither being biological. However, the culture defines what is masculine and what is feminine. One theory is that the child sees their parents and caretakers modeling behavior and combines that with their own predetermined tendencies to result in their gender (which is typically solid by age three). More research is obviously needed into what causes it.

I would contend that gender is not completely a social construct. Race is a social construct, but phenotypical characteristics determine the raw material for skin color and hair color; likewise, the brain as determined by conditions during pregnancy (or genetic predisposition) provide the raw child and, possibly, their tendency to associate themselves with a gender, as modeled by parents but perhaps linked to something more innate, while society provides the guide. Gender is also related in some way to the body's sex, as evinced by the phenomenon of gender dysphoria, though different variables have not been controlled for in an experiment (to my knowledge, anyway).

Gender is really complicated, but really interesting. The main thing is that we need to be respectful of everyone's gender-related self-identification even if we're personally doubtful of them, since we don't know everything.

Thank you for asking a good question.

Overall this sounds like a pretty backwards country you live in. My advice if one finds himself born in such one would be to move, some societies need longer to be changed than a lifetime.
Other than that nothing you said here sounds like it isn't handled by the law in western countries.
And noone needed to tell me about their genitals so far (their wetness might have been mentioned), since those always looked like what was expected.

...

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Cliges]

Didn't your parents ever explain the harsh realities of the world to you once you lost all your baby teeth?

Whoa, let's not make this about my parents, for whom I'm sure my milk teeth mattered little...

But let's take it from the start here. I'm not going to take a stand on the issue as such; but a social convention is real to those who abide it, right? I'm not asking you to accept it, but to consider it and all the attendant implications.

 

[al-Aziz]

Also, by the way, I compared gender to race. They are not the same thing. There are certain aspects of both that are different, like how race is about descent from certain groups or the shared heritage of being a certain race. I'm not trying to claim that people can feel transracial, but rather enhance understanding through a metaphor.

 

[LatinKaiser]

Whoa, let's not make this about my parents, for whom I'm sure my milk teeth mattered little...

But let's take it from the start here. I'm not going to take a stand on the issue as such; but a social convention is real to those who abide it, right? I'm not asking you to accept it, but to consider it and all the attendant implications.

I'm just trying to protect you from getting scammed by "Tooth Fairies" the next time you open your email.

Thank you for finally asking a good question!

Well, there's no real consensus on this, but the answer is probably something incorporating aspects of both ideas. According to the site linked above, hormones in the second trimester result in noticeably male or female brain structures. So there is some evidence for a child's preferences for femininity or masculinity or neither being biological. However, the culture defines what is masculine and what is feminine. One theory is that the child sees their parents and caretakers modeling behavior and combines that with their own predetermined tendencies to result in their gender (which is typically solid by age three). More research is obviously needed into what causes it.

I would contend that gender is not completely a social construct. Race is a social construct, but phenotypical characteristics determine the raw material for skin color and hair color; likewise, the brain as determined by conditions during pregnancy (or genetic predisposition) provide the raw child and, possibly, their tendency to associate themselves with a gender, as modeled by parents but perhaps linked to something more innate, while society provides the guide. Gender is also related in some way to the body's sex, as evinced by the phenomenon of gender dysphoria, though different variables have not been controlled for in an experiment (to my knowledge, anyway).

Gender is really complicated, but really interesting. The main thing is that we need to be respectful of everyone's gender-related self-identification even if we're personally doubtful of them, since we don't know everything.

Thank you for asking a good question.


...

Thanks for your advice.

The way I see it, gender is determined by whatever biological/science stuff says, and it is gender roles that are socially constructed. I mean, I don't think that taking care of children or cooking meals is what makes a person "female" -- to claim as such is, I think, to wholly surrender to the gender roles one is ostensibly combating.

 

[npstr]

Thanks for your advice.

Do I smell sarcasm?

 

[Jacksonian Missionary]

Do I smell sarcasm?

I think that smell is cocaine.

 

[al-Aziz]

The way I see it, gender is determined by whatever biological/science stuff says, and it is gender roles that are socially constructed. I mean, I don't think that taking care of children or cooking meals is what makes a person "female" -- to claim as such is, I think, to wholly surrender to the gender roles one is ostensibly combating.

That's certainly a valid point of view. What would you then define as gender? /genuinely curious

I don't really have a solidified theory on this particular question, because there doesn't appear to have been adequate research on the subject.

Do I smell sarcasm?

Do you have a good sense of smell, npster? Do you know who else has a good sense of smell?

Wolves. Wolves have great senses of smell.

So do waffles. Waffles are known throughout the world for their rad nostril hairs. That's why you're not supposed to eat one too soon after swimming.

 

[al-Aziz]

In case anyone hadn't seen it:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/interest-check-the-box.924889/

Oy!

Dr. L, are you also a fan of Eliezer Yudkowsky? Because that man is awesome. Well, sometimes his work is a little inaccurate, but otherwise he does really well in presenting rationalist ideas accessibly.

 

[npstr]

Do you have a good sense of smell, npster? Do you know who else has a good sense of smell?

Wolves. Wolves have great senses of smell.

So do waffles. Waffles are known throughout the world for their rad nostril hairs. That's why you're not supposed to eat one too soon after swimming.

You got me. I am trans-species and identify myself as a canis lupus. Do I get my own bathroom now?

 

[Cliges]

I'm just trying to protect you from getting scammed by "Tooth Fairies" the next time you open your email.

You might think that the very notion of a "social construct" is utter nonsense, but for those who hold to such idea, consider that a social construct is not in itself a bad thing, neither does it require one to think it does not exist as a natural consequence of being a social construct.

I

The way I see it, gender is determined by whatever biological/science stuff says, and it is gender roles that are socially constructed. I mean, I don't think that taking care of children or cooking meals is what makes a person "female" -- to claim as such is, I think, to wholly surrender to the gender roles one is ostensibly combating.

There is no inherent reason why one would have to reject, or accept, such a role simply because of its predication on being a social construct.

 

[Jacksonian Missionary]

You got me. I am trans-species and identify myself as a canis lupus. Do I get my own bathroom now?

 

[Dr.Livingstone]

Oy!

Dr. L, are you also a fan of Eliezer Yudkowsky? Because that man is awesome. Well, sometimes his work is a little inaccurate, but otherwise he does really well in presenting rationalist ideas accessibly.

Of course. I read HPMOR a few months ago, and although I wasn't really a fan of the plot, I found much of it truly enjoyable. His lesswrong website is great, and I use it as a crutch whenever I'm trying to learn philosophy.

 

[al-Aziz]

You got me. I am trans-species and identify myself as a canis lupus. Do I get my own bathroom now?

Did you read anything that I just posted?

Here's what I think you're doing.

You can't attack the idea head on. You can't find a single flaw in my argument or a single valid defense for making fun of trans people directly.

So now you've moved on to being passive-aggressive through implying that being transgender is as legitimate as claiming to be a wolf. Nice job.

And you also turned down the olive branch I just extended. I offered you a way out of this. I offered you a way to save face humorously. Instead, you continued to insult trans people just because you felt that you needed to win something. Nice job.

 

[al-Aziz]

Of course. I read HPMOR a few months ago, and although I wasn't really a fan of the plot, I found much of it truly enjoyable. His lesswrong website is great, and I use it as a crutch whenever I'm trying to learn philosophy.

I read hpmor and converted to atheism due to reading it. It changed my entire outlook on life, and while I've since discovered flaws in the experiments it cites, Yudkowsky's work will always have a special place in my heart.

It's nice to find someone else who enjoys the same niches of the internet as I do.

 

[Jacksonian Missionary]

I read hpmor and converted to atheism due to reading it.

For some reason I doubt he was able to refute the proof of contingency.

 

[Dr.Livingstone]

I read hpmor and converted to atheism due to reading it. It changed my entire outlook on life, and while I've since discovered flaws in the experiments it cites, Yudkowsky's work will always have a special place in my heart.

It's nice to find someone else who enjoys the same niches of the internet as I do.

I'm not really surprised to find another fan on this site, and I have to agree that it did change a lot of my outlook on life. The numbers game is still really fun to bring up with friends. The AI-Box theme is something I've wanted to try for a while, but it only recently recrossed my mind when I listened to a podcast and heard the host mention it.