Xenophobes all wrong

[GAGA Extrem]

No, it's completely craptastic at the moment. It's benefits range from neglibel, to someone else (collectivist) does it better, to being outright mali like added xenophobia which makes your pop hates others, while others hate you. It also looks you out from genetic engineering and some other stuff. Going with "but my RP" doesn't really hold up when xenophobia itself is terrible.

It's a niche ethic, weaker than other stuff, but not useless. The democractic and oligarchic governments are good enough to justify the use over Collectivist in certain builds.

 

[Franz Limit]

Any info on whether collectivists care about xeno slavery? Some people are claiming they don't care, but I find that hard to believe.

Also, is it true that xenophobes can't engage in genetic modification? That also seems nonsensical to me.

So much we don't know about this game, lol. It really feels like an old Paradox release with the players trying to understand all these undocumented mechanics.

I did half of a playthrough with communal fanatic collectivist-spiritualist bugs. All my pops (which didn't lose their ethos) were allways near 100% happiness no mather if they were enslaved or not. Since they weren't xenophobe they were totally fine with slave xenos on their planet. My home planet even had 1/3 xenos on it because I collected different slave pops on my home planet. So yeah they are totally fine with slave xenos as long as they keep their ethos. If any pop loses the ethos it isn't problematic either, you just enslave the troublemaker and every is fine with it since slave happiness doesn't mather at all. (in fact all non-collectivist conquered xenos even had higher happiness as slaves as they did while being free)
Another bonus for fanatic collectivist is that you get special tech for buildings which lowers the ethic divergence. (so some alien races will also convert to your ethos -> if you are not about xenophobia but just about the regime itself you can have some happy free xenos in your empire too).

You would overkill the whole slavery tollerance thing a bit but if you like you could also take collectivist + spiritualist + anything else (or 1 of the 2 as fanatic). If you pair this with divine mandate you get first 100% slavery tollerance and later with the upgraded government even 150% (which doesn't bring any benefit for your main race but your xenos would be happier at least). That way you would also get the ethic divergence techs from the collectivists + the ethic divergence building from divine mandate -> you could brainwash a lot of the conquered races to your regime.. especially if you genetically modify them and give everyone the conformist trait -> enslave every free thinking rebell and free everyone who embraces the glory of the divine god-emperor.

 

[Praetori]

The problem is that there is no way to kick xenos out save by purging them all. So a xenophobic empire gets either unhappiness because they allow aliens, or unhappiness because they enslave them, or unhappiness because they purge them.

There should be a "soft" policy making xenos unwelcome without going genocidal and slaver-like on them, and making them leave through migration.

Interestingly enough there are events for reservations (I've come across it in-game as well but only once) which isolates pops in tiles without causing penalties on the rest of the planetary pops (although you have no sway over said tiles afterwards). So it could be possible to mod/script some form of "internment" option.
I would like PDS to adress all of this in future expansions. Deportations and even illegal pops would be great (maybe even multi-pop tiles, which would be awesome).

 

[-Marauder-]

It's a niche ethic, weaker than other stuff, but not useless. The democractic and oligarchic governments are good enough to justify the use over Collectivist in certain builds.

It's not a niche ethic, it's plain bad right now and in many ways detrimential. Let's compare it to it's closet relative, collectivist step by step.

Xenophobe 50%/100% Xeno Slavery Tolerance | 50%/100% all around slave tolerance Collectivist
Xenophobe -10/20 on all relations (negative) | -5%/10% food consumption Collectivist
Xenophobe monument of purity (10 happiness) | -15% divergence building Collectivist (The former is per planet, the later appears empire wide!)
Xenophobe allows purging | allows purging Collectivist
Xenophobe has no specific tech | -20% divergence + 25% colony speed Collectivist
Xenophobe genetical engineering punished | genetical engineer away Collectivist

Look, this is just a short summary, xenophobe has NOTHING positive going to it which collectivist doesn't do BETTER. Worse without the massive divergence reduction collectivist comes with your pops are likely to lose their xenophobia very quickly. Which means you keep the negative aspects such as lowered relationships while ALSO seeing your pops upset about enslaved aliens.

No this isn't making the case about Collectivist needing a nerf, it's just that xenophobe right now is an all around terrible ethos. It's few benefits are neglibel, 10% happiness isn't going to do much unless you have other stuff to stack it with to get bonus production going and it has HUGE backdraws. Aside from "RP" there's no reason to take it, ever.

 

[delra]

1. Building Monument of Purity pushes a lot of builds above 90% happiness.
2. They can purge conquered xenos.
3. They have funny dialogue options.
4. Xeno slavery is very much a thing, combined with Collectivism or Divine Mandate for example.

 

[-Marauder-]

Sometimes I even wonder why I bother, it appears nobody is reading it anyway. :|

 

[Madzai]

Sometimes I even wonder why I bother, it appears nobody is reading it anyway. :|

Nah, people do read it. Played 2 times with Xenophobes and now regret it. It's really useless aside from RP - and even there it have problems - Xenophobes are bigots only, no isolationists, no real fear toward aliens.
Gonna play as Fanatic Individualists - Materialists next with no Sectors and lower divergence, because both of them are bugged ATM. Still have to figure the problem with non-existent additional traits on Leaders.

 

[-Marauder-]

Madzai, I personally will mostly go with Collectivist/Militarist/Materialist in the future, snapping up the boni of all three. I tried that set up for my neutral race, turns out it's the most evil I've ever made in many ways. They're really, really not nice people yet everyone is fine with them.

 

[thekaje]

Put the way you put it, it certainly seems possible that Xenophobic is just a weaker form of Collectivist (assuming that Collectivists can indeed enslave xenos with no happiness penalty).

However, there is still a lot of stuff under the hood of this game that people haven't unearthed yet just because of how poorly documented it is. For example, I didn't know Spiritualists dislike the AI Servitude policy, as that isn't written anywhere. There also seem to be ethos-specific events.

We'll see, but you seem to be on to something to me (although the +10% happiness monument is actually a huge help).

 

[Molnet]

Interesting read about the xenophobe ethic. Picked it and combined it with the repugnant trait in my latest custom build. Less than stellar... Landed in a crowded spiral arm and no one wanted to be my friend. My plan was along the "PURGE THE XENOS" or maybe a slavedriven empire. Well that wasn´t my peoples destiny... There might have been som purging, but well, we kind of got the wrong end of the stick this time.
Next run is going to be a bit more carefull.

 

[Fimconte]

1. Building Monument of Purity pushes a lot of builds above 90% happiness.

But you don't need it.
Talros+Tree of Life+ 5% from any source (communal/spiritualist/militaristic building/etc) and you hit 90%.
You don't get anything extra for being above 90%.
If you also want Synthets, you skip spiritualist for Militaristic or Communal.

Also, if you're going for happiness, then you don't really need slaves anyway.
Purging aliens and Uplifting (uplifted get +20% happy when ruled by their benefactors) is far better.
Which only reinforces the divide between Collectivist and Xenophobic, because uplifting alternative biome pre-sentients gives you perfectly happy citizens that you can use to colonize other biomes without the penalty your own citizens would get.

2. They can purge conquered xenos.

Collectivist can Purge anyone without internal penalties.

3. They have funny dialogue options.

Irrelevant for balance.

4. Xeno slavery is very much a thing, combined with Collectivism or Divine Mandate for example.

Except (as Fanatic or with Mandate) Collectivism can enslave anyone (including your own people so you can pick up Decadent for no real penalty) and don't suffer diplomatic penalties.

Put the way you put it, it certainly seems possible that Xenophobic is just a weaker form of Collectivist (assuming that Collectivists can indeed enslave xenos with no happiness penalty).

They can.

However, there is still a lot of stuff under the hood of this game that people haven't unearthed yet just because of how poorly documented it is. For example, I didn't know Spiritualists dislike the AI Servitude policy, as that isn't written anywhere. There also seem to be ethos-specific events.

There really isn't much that isn't on the wiki (linked above).
You can also check through all the events yourself quite easily with a simple text editor.

We'll see, but you seem to be on to something to me (although the +10% happiness monument is actually a huge help).

It really isn't, there are plenty of other sources that can cover its loss.

 

[Stoßtrupp Gold]

I really hope the devs have the xenophobes need for a fix on their list.
Would "just" take 2 things:
- Make genetically modified pop no longer an own species
- Increase the alien slavery tolerance from 50 to 100 and for fanatics from 100 to 150.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Look, this is just a short summary, xenophobe has NOTHING positive going to it which collectivist doesn't do BETTER. [...]

I'll agree that FANATIC Xenophobe is a horrible choice - that offers nothing worthwhile for your 2 ethic points.

I'll repeat myself regarding the 1 point investment:
(a) The 10% Happiness building is a significant advantage over Collectivist.
(b) The fact that it doesn't lock you out of democratic or oligarchic governments is important.

Xenophobe is good for aggressive races or Fanatics of other ethics that want to use happiness. You get to purge the filthy Xenos once you conquered them, you get your 10% happiness building that you can use in conjuntion with other happiness modifiers and you have total freedom for your government choice.

Three sample builds off my head:
Materialist + Xenophobe + Individualist / Direct Democracy / Adapative + Communal + Sedentary -> Tech focus, enough happiness to get joyful, extra core worlds (or whatever Materialist gov you want), Energy bonus
Militarist + Xenophobe + Spiritualist / Theocratic Republic / Conformists + Communal + Sedentary -> Military focus, lower divergence, enough happiness to get happy, extra core worlds
Militarist + Xenophobe + Spiritualist / Divine Mandate / Thrifty + Communal + Sedentary -> Same as above, but allows for Xeno Slavery right off the bat and full slavery with advanced governments (and makes enslaved xenos happier) and more focused on Energy.

 

[Timelordwho]

I can't disagree with that. There's gotta be something else to it. Policies maybe? I mean that'd be pretty stupid otherwise, no?

Collectivist also locks you out from getting gov't types, & from getting individualist pops (who generate extra energy even if it's not your ethos)

 

[Dezmodium]

I really want to play xenophobes just for the purge ability

You can purge just fine with fanatic collectivist. They don't seem to mind.

As a matter of fact in my collectivist game I've purged plenty. I conquer, enslave, and purge. Any pops that have a close ethics to me I move them to places that I can brainwash them and purge the rest.

Collectivist is superior to xenophobia in this aspect, too.

 

[Timelordwho]

Huh, it looks like individualist fanatical xenophobe can enslave Xenos freely since the slave acceptance mods are multiplicative.

Which means you can get mineral/food bonus from slaves and energy bonus from free citizens, and if you have some drift to fanatic individualist, that's pretty solid.

 

[delra]

There's a pile of good republican builds with xenophobe enabling you to do evil stuff to the aliens.

 

[elitesix]

Fanatic Xenophobes are an amazing pick for defense and deterrence against military campaigns by nations that can't handle lots of slaves. This is most noticeable in MP, but also in SP. Fanatic Xenophobes get -40% happiness when conquered "-40% Ruled By Alien Overlord". No other ethic pick comes anywhere close to reliably giving any conqueror a -40% happiness modifier. This won't affect nations that have 100% slavery tolerance as they can just enslave your fanatic xenophobes, but every other empire must face factional problems and potentially rebelling back to it's original nation, or resort to purging if available and face diplomacy problems.


Go try and conquer and try to assimilate several colonies of fanatic xenophobes without slavery. It's basically impossible. Fanatic Xenophobes didn't seem like a good pick at first, then I conquered 2 fanatic xenophobic colonies without full slavery tolerance and could not control their faction even after reducing the progress of their factionalism maybe 6-8 times - I had to purge the 25 population, and incurred at -80 diplomacy hit with many nations.


In short, Fanatic Xenophobes offers huge penalties for racial integration to other empires and is a surprisingly sweet pick.

 

[208]

The problem is that there is no way to kick xenos out save by purging them all. So a xenophobic empire gets either unhappiness because they allow aliens, or unhappiness because they enslave them, or unhappiness because they purge them.

Can you not resettle them to some kind of "exile colony" that has only xenos on it?

 

[Cyridius]

Collectivist-Xenophobe-Militarist is the only combo that allows you to do what you want without issue. It gives you the most control over your empire by far imo.