Xenophobes all wrong

[GAGA Extrem]

Xenophobe offers:
(a) Xeno-Purge
(b) Xeno-Slavery
(c) Monument of Purity (+10% happiness)
(d) Anti-Xeno policy accepting pops
(e) No government, but unlike Collectivist it also doesn't REMOVE government options
So it is a niche ethic, but has it's use.

From a fluff perspective a Xenophobe empire can be played as either racist or isolationist, although the game mechanics obviously are better at representing the former.

 

[Dunbal]

Xenophobes have no real bonus, they have a little less penality that still is huge, so slavery is still impossible to do.

Why enslave them when you can just kill them.

Xenophobia done right. More human ear soup? It's real nice with the Blorg dressing.

 

[koestritzer]

Folk.... i read this thread. I don't have anything to contribute to the matter. Just one thing:
I can purge xenos without being a xenophobe. Did I miss something?
I can actually purge everyone. And enslave. I'm just a normal collectivst.

 

[Akka le Vil]

Collectivist is most probably the reason. After all, purge was initially about political dissent, not racial ^^

 

[Praetori]

I agree that xenophobes getting unhappiness from enslaved pops of other races should not be a thing.

Just because you don't like aliens doesn't mean you approve of slavery so I really do get the mechanic. I actually think the "purge" is a bit under-penalized as far as your internal politics go. Other empires are horrified if they have a different ethos (and by right as far as their line of reasoning goes) but even your own pops should be a bit freaked out when you purge a pacifist collectivist pop that did nothing but collaborate (unless you have some sinister trait that says otherwise).

For example, going 40K and purging the man-eating "1979 Alien" or "The Thing" aliens would make sense but killing off E.T-phone-home en-masse should horrify even your own population (if they had a mix of present day earth style ethos).

 

[Akka le Vil]

Just because you don't like aliens doesn't mean you approve of slavery so I really do get the mechanic. I actually think the "purge" is a bit under-penalized as far as your internal politics go. Other empires are horrified if they have a different ethos (and by right as far as their line of reasoning goes) but even your own pops should be a bit freaked out when you purge a pacifist collectivist pop that did nothing but collaborate (unless you have some sinister trait that says otherwise).

The problem is that there is no way to kick xenos out save by purging them all. So a xenophobic empire gets either unhappiness because they allow aliens, or unhappiness because they enslave them, or unhappiness because they purge them.

There should be a "soft" policy making xenos unwelcome without going genocidal and slaver-like on them, and making them leave through migration.

 

[Draculdraconis]

the reason Xenophobes get a penalty even if there is an enslaved Xeno around is they are frightened oft the Xeno they get panic attacks if a xeno is around. The mere thought of the possibility of meeting a xeno on the street sends shivers down their spine.

This brings up 2 possible ways of dealing with Xenos ignore (aka isolate yourself from the xeno) or destroy (PURGE!!!) all the xenos.

I for one neither care for Xphil nor for Xphob. As my fanatic Collectivist militarist I will give them 20 years to get with the program (aka be happy damn it) or purge them and send one pop over and genetically modify it so it can live on that planet. (in this time I have the divergence lowering policy on an purge parts of the pops so I get new pops without newly conquered)

 

[thekaje]

Why enslave them when you can just kill them.

Pretty sure you're joking, but slavery doesn't get enough props. Slaves are more productive on both mines and farms than robots (and therefore 20% better than normal pops), plus their happiness is totally irrelevant so they can work on any planet, no matter how inhospitable. It's awesome and bizarre that there are no slave rebellions in the game.

The problem is that there is no way to kick xenos out save by purging them all. So a xenophobic empire gets either unhappiness because they allow aliens, or unhappiness because they enslave them, or unhappiness because they purge them.

Huh? That's not true at all. A Fanatic Xenophobic race gets 0 unhappiness from enslaving xenos. Not sure about purges, though.

There should be a "soft" policy making xenos unwelcome without going genocidal and slaver-like on them, and making them leave through migration.

I think that could happen if you set up a migration treaty with an ally. If your policies are very xenophobic (no leadership roles to xenos, xeno slavery allowed but not practiced, etc.), then the xenos will probably be sad enough to leave.

Would be cool if the game simulated some citizen-vs-citizen social interactions, though. The xenophobic ethos should lead to harsh treatment of xeno pops by nativist pops.

 

[Akka le Vil]

Huh? That's not true at all. A Fanatic Xenophobic race gets 0 unhappiness from enslaving xenos. Not sure about purges, though.

Well, sure, a FANATIC xenophobic empire doesn't get unhappiness for slavery. A regular xenophobic does, though.

I think that could happen if you set up a migration treaty with an ally. If your policies are very xenophobic (no leadership roles to xenos, xeno slavery allowed but not practiced, etc.), then the xenos will probably be sad enough to leave.

Maybe, but :
1) Making a migration treaty with xenos is not really consistant with being xenophobic to begin with.
2) Being xenophobic, you get quite a bit of relation penalties, making the possibility to get the treaty rather low.

So basically, you're better NOT being xenophobic to get rid of xenos...

 

[Zyrious]

For the record, xenophobia does not = Bigotry/hatred, rather it = fear. Fear of those that are unknown/unknowable/different. Even the flavor texts depicts moderate xenophobia as fearing the aliens and the danger they represent to your life/way of life. More fanatical forms can become hatred/bigotry, but it is not inherent to xenophobia.

So xenophobic pops being uncomfortable around slaves makes sense. It's not that they're against the slavery, it's that they're thinking "What if that thing gets lose?" or "why do we keep them around at all?". You'll notice if you have alien slaves on other planets your pops don't care at all, only if they're nearby. Also, I don't believe you get any penalties for purging (not for your pops, other nations definitely care), so anything you do that removes the threat your pops approve of.

 

[thekaje]

Well, sure, a FANATIC xenophobic empire doesn't get unhappiness for slavery. A regular xenophobic does, though.

Yes, that is why there are two levels of xenophobia. A mildly xenophobic race can use a mild quantity of xeno slaves without it being a big deal.

Maybe, but :
1) Making a migration treaty with xenos is not really consistant with being xenophobic to begin with.
2) Being xenophobic, you get quite a bit of relation penalties, making the possibility to get the treaty rather low

1) Totally disagree. A migration treaty does exactly what you want, as no xenos will want to live on your planets so all migration will be out (barring bugs).
2) I'm honestly suspicious that you have played many hours as a xenophobic race or even of Stellaris itself, lol. With embassies and common rivals and whatnot, it's not hard to get sky-high relations with anyone you want.

 

[Gaan Cathal]

I don't think +150% gives positive happiness. It's slave tolerance not a modifier to boni/penalties. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've tested directly by enslaving/emancipating/enslaving and the happiness changes directly with the change in slave status. Slavery Tolerance (on the enslaved pop, which means it has to involve the pop being Collectivist, enslaving aliens as a Xenophobe won't produce the same effect even as a Transcendent Empire) above 100% does increase happiness.

 

[Beric]

I just want a viable way to play a xenophobe that isn't a slaver. For example fanatic materialist xenophobes that just sit researching and don't mess with anyone. Ethoses should be good by themselves, even if they synergize with other ethoses as well.

 

[Akka le Vil]

You'll notice if you have alien slaves on other planets your pops don't care at all, only if they're nearby.

That's completely false, you get the slavery penalty if anyone is enslaved anywhere in your empire.

I don't get why this false information is so prevalent (I swear I've seen it pop up in EVERY thread about slavery), but IT. IS. FALSE.

Just for the record :

Notice the slave happiness penalty for a pop which is xenophobic, while there is no slave nor xeno on this planet at all.

1) Totally disagree. A migration treaty does exactly what you want, as no xenos will want to live on your planets so all migration will be out (barring bugs).

You're talking about mechanics, I'm talking about logic. It's illogical for a xenophobic government to open up migration treaty. They DO NOT WANT to open migration, that's the whole point.

 

[danest]

There is in fact a slaver AI personality. Collectivism and Xenophobia combined with the decadent trait often results in it.
Spirituality, militarism, and xenophobia often result in fiery evangelists or even xenophobic purgers ai personality types.
Pacifist xenophobics are often isolationist and want to just be left alone.

That being said, I experimented with playing as a (non-fanatic) xenophobe and did think the dialogue was a bit like a cartoonish version of a xenophobe. My first contact with aliens, and I was able to say "alien scum." It seemed a bit severe for a literal first contact with alien life, like maybe "we're watching you, don't try anything" would have been saner while still not liking them. *shrug*

Edit: Each ethos should probably have a dual purpose, so you could be a xenophobic slaver, but also a xenophobic isolationist. Maybe a bonus if there are no mixed populations with the primary species, or a big bonus for not having alliances with those dirty slug things.

 

[Gaan Cathal]

I just want a viable way to play a xenophobe that isn't a slaver. For example fanatic materialist xenophobes that just sit researching and don't mess with anyone. Ethoses should be good by themselves, even if they synergize with other ethoses as well.

Going (non-Fanatic) Xenophobe without intending to enslave is perfectly viable. It gives you a population happy to Purge The Unclean, which is convenient, and gives you the second-best (arguably best) ethos-specific building in the game with the Monument To Purity (+10% happiness, buildable at the first capital upgrade and zero maintenance).

 

[Dunbal]

No, my xenophobic militarists have a huge -20% happiness modifier because i purged the unclean. T.T
The Purity tower thing. Really good.
Edit: What ^that^ guy said

I put the Monument to Purity on the mass grave site

 

[-Marauder-]

Xenophobe offers:
(a) Xeno-Purge
(b) Xeno-Slavery
(c) Monument of Purity (+10% happiness)
(d) Anti-Xeno policy accepting pops
(e) No government, but unlike Collectivist it also doesn't REMOVE government options
So it is a niche ethic, but has it's use.

From a fluff perspective a Xenophobe empire can be played as either racist or isolationist, although the game mechanics obviously are better at representing the former.

(a) so does collectivist
(b) collectivist offers this AND slavery for your own race.
(c) talked about, quite bad compared to other options such as virtual combat arena. 10%+ happiness does, pretty much nothing.
(d) so do collectivist and some others
(e) if you pick xenophob, you wont pick most of these options anyway.
No, it's completely craptastic at the moment. It's benefits range from neglibel, to someone else (collectivist) does it better, to being outright mali like added xenophobia which makes your pop hates others, while others hate you. It also looks you out from genetic engineering and some other stuff. Going with "but my RP" doesn't really hold up when xenophobia itself is terrible.

 

[Payens]

If you go Fanatic Collectivist you can purge everything too without making your people unhappy.. So there isn't even that advantage

Yeah, but I want to have a democracy type government, hence why I was thinking of xenophobia for the purging. I'm rather fond of having more core planets via government form!

 

[thekaje]

Any info on whether collectivists care about xeno slavery? Some people are claiming they don't care, but I find that hard to believe.

Also, is it true that xenophobes can't engage in genetic modification? That also seems nonsensical to me.

So much we don't know about this game, lol. It really feels like an old Paradox release with the players trying to understand all these undocumented mechanics.