Xenophobes all wrong

[PauloPhenee]

Paradox, I hate you because you're making me do a post to "defend" xenophobes, even if they are ficticious ones.
Ok, here's my two cents on why xenophobe is the worse ethos (in gameplay terms)

Xenophobes have no real bonus, they have a little less penality that still is huge, so slavery is still impossible to do. Which doesn't make sense when you look at real world biggots. Xenophobes aren't always isolationist, a military xenophobe is the definition of a slave trader. So in my opinion this is how xenophobes should play out:

Pops:
Diferent race free pop near - Xenophobe - happiness penality/ Fanatical Xenophobe - huge happiness penality
Diferent race slave pop near - Xenophobe - no penality (they don't care)/ Fanatical Xenophobe - happiness bonus (they actually enjoy the idea of an "inferior race" slave)

Policies:
Xenophobes hate when other people have rights, so:
If any alien race has any rights (even if the xenophobe population also has) - happiness penality
If any alien race has right they don't have - huge happiness penality.

 

[Oscot]

I'm playing pacifist-spiritualist-xenophobes.
They don't hate other species at all. They just believe in an ethnic god that they don't think outsiders can receive the blessings of.
They despise inter-species slavery, because slavery represents the violent interference of one race in the affairs of another.
Basically "Stay out of our internal politics and we'll stay out of yours" China.
And enslaving another civilization is absolutely not "Staying out of their politics".

Your move.

 

[PauloPhenee]

That's exactly what I mean, xenophobe can be isolasionism, but it can also be direct intervention (to oppress). The Ethos should be able to reflect that.

 

[Akka le Vil]

I admit, it feels weird to see my xenophobic militaristic race getting happiness PENALTY because I enslaved some disgusting xeno who declared war on me.

 

[nestorius]

I have to say I disagree a xenophobe thinks that they are better than you they may trade with you but they will still look down on you and relations will be tough.

If you want slavery and trading you want a non xenophobe non xenophile, though in that case you may as well go for slavery of their own pop.

Xenophobes are meant to be isolationist or not isolationist but negative towards others they are ok with enslaving the other races but not with working with them.

and to answer a pacifist spiritualist xenophobe looks down at other races as they are generally ungodly despite maybe not supporting slavery relations with them will always be difficult as they view everyone else as basically sinful barbarians that will never go to heaven or whatever they believe.

I dont really see that xenophobe should be a positive trait ( I havent designed a race yet really so dont know if it takes away points or not) but its just a negative trait the only bonus I can see is that its easier to act evil.

With regard to the slavery I can see that too yes we enslaved the disgusting alien and they are my slaves now but they are still disgusting aliens and I would prefer to have nothing to do with them

 

[Number 7]

I admit, it feels weird to see my xenophobic militaristic race getting happiness PENALTY because I enslaved some disgusting xeno who declared war on me.

i think because your pops figure you must have mis-clicked, surely you meant to press that button next to the enslave button, the one that xenophobes approve of right?

 

[Number 7]

I dont really see that xenophobe should be a positive trait ( I havent designed a race yet really so dont know if it takes away points or not) but its just a negative trait the only bonus I can see is that its easier to act evil.

With regard to the slavery I can see that too yes we enslaved the disgusting alien and they are my slaves now but they are still disgusting aliens and I would prefer to have nothing to do with them

Xenophobe isn't a positive or negative trait its an ethic. you get three ethics points when making a race that are the state ethics that all your pops originally follow and that all pops will converge on if you have negative ethics divergence (such as using propaganda campaigns and pops being extremely happy under your government)

Traits are the ones like Communal, Repugnant, Industrious etc.

 

[AmpsterMan]

Xenophobia refers to using the purge button. Fantastical racism of sorts. Collectivism is the one for enslavement.

 

[Gaan Cathal]

Xenophobes have no real bonus, they have a little less penality that still is huge, so slavery is still impossible to do. Which doesn't make sense when you look at real world biggots. Xenophobes aren't always isolationist, a military xenophobe is the definition of a slave trader. So in my opinion this is how xenophobes should play out:

Uh, Fanatic Xenophobe gives you +100% tolerance of alien slaves - so that removes the penalty all on it's own.

If you take basic Xenophobe then yes, you need to get the other +50% from somewhere in order to completely nullify the penalty. You can get the other 50% from elsewhere though, like taking Spiritualist in order to open the Divine Mandate government for a +50% global slavery tolerance. Infact, the advanced govt. form would push you to 150% total, giving you a happiness bonus for slavery.

So yeah, you can absolutely play an "enslave the xenos" xenophobe. If you don't want to devote the resources to doing so, then yeah.. xenophobe alone isn't going to give you a slave-empire, but has other influences on tech etc and, importantly, response to purging xenos - important for one-species empires.

If you want alien slaves go Fanatic Xenophobe or stack other slavery bonuses.
If you want to ignore slaves and purge your way to ethnic purity, take Xenophobe alone.

 

[Madzai]

i think because your pops figure you must have mis-clicked, surely you meant to press that button next to the enslave button, the one that xenophobes approve of right?

Nope, that button is off for militaristic xenophobes by default. It's only for fanatical ones.
But my militaristic xenophobes already acts as bigots toward anyone and it almost impossible to build any relationship with another race. You can't even play as isolationists (because of militaristic) - your only choices on first contact are rude ones without exeptions.

 

[Phibs]

I agree that xenophobes getting unhappiness from enslaved pops of other races should not be a thing.

 

[-Marauder-]

Here's the issue with that, Collectivists gives you 100% tolerance for slavery in general. Rather than just xeno slavery. while ALSO giving you -10% food consumption. Xenophobe gives you 100% slavery tolerance for aliens only. Without any other added bonuses. In fact it adds a mali with -20% relations. Atop of that they had xenos, they hate genetical engineering, they hate basically everything.

Ethoses are in general giving you BONUSES, Xenophobe is the only one that gives you an inferior version of one trait, while simultaneously also punishing you.

I agree that xenophobes getting unhappiness from enslaved pops of other races should not be a thing.

They get unhappiness from a whole host of other things while having no positive attributes at this point. If you'd pick a trait, xenophobe would be squarely in the red area or at the very least a very, very, very dark orange.

 

[Phibs]

Here's the issue with that, Collectivists gives you 100% tolerance for slavery in general. Rather than just xeno slavery. while ALSO giving you -10% food consumption. Xenophobe gives you 100% slavery tolerance for aliens only. Without any other added bonuses. In fact it adds a mali with -20% relations. Atop of that they had xenos, they hate genetical engineering, they hate basically everything.

Ethoses are in general giving you BONUSES, Xenophobe is the only one that gives you an inferior version of one trait, while simultaneously also punishing you.


They get unhappiness from a whole host of other things while having no positive attributes at this point. If you'd pick a trait, xenophobe would be squarely in the red area or at the very least a very, very, very dark orange.

I can't disagree with that. There's gotta be something else to it. Policies maybe? I mean that'd be pretty stupid otherwise, no?

 

[nestorius]

I agree that xenophobes getting unhappiness from enslaved pops of other races should not be a thing.

I think the main thing is that xenophobes like that other races are slaves but they hate other races in general so the thing is balanced you hate them as disgusting aliens but like them as slaves. Isnt this fine?

 

[Payens]

I really want to play xenophobes just for the purge ability; but I shudder every time I think that I can not genetically improve my own master race and then go back to grumbling over the ethos screen as to what to pick instead... Literally been doing that for 30 minutes now. Slavery is buggy for sectors, sectors can't use robots, xenophobes hate themselves when improved... So much cool stuff that I basically think "need to wait until fixed"; all that remains is apparently militarist something something. :S

Make Xenophobia great again!

 

[Phibs]

I think the main thing is that xenophobes like that other races are slaves but they hate other races in general so the thing is balanced you hate them as disgusting aliens but like them as slaves. Isnt this fine?

Ok my current understanding is that xenophobic pops don't get unhappiness from enslaving other pops. But they do from those pops being on the same planet?
I might be completely mistaken.

 

[Akka le Vil]

I think that xenophobe should get the "evict" ability/modifier/edict/whatever, which would act like "purge" but through migration (so more slowly and at the risk of reinforcing your neighbours with your refugees) and without the insane diplomacy penalty of actual purge. So it would at least be possible to have a xenophobic empire actually sticking to its ethos and kicking out xenos.

Ok my current understanding is that xenophobic pops don't get unhappiness from enslaving other pops. But they do from those pops being on the same planet?
I might be completely mistaken.

Xenophobic pop gets either half (for regular xenophobic) or no (for fanatic xenophobic) happiness penalty for xenos slavery.
And yes, it means that if you have xeno slaves somewhere in your empire, EVERYONE in your xenophobic population will get half happiness penalty.

For me, it means that some guy declared war on me. I crushed his fleet, and conquered one of his planet (so I could expand around his empire, as he was blocking my way from the rest of the arm). I enslaved his pop on his planet (because xenophobic and militaristic and they declared war on me).

Now I have -12,5 % happiness on my whole empire because of this planet. Dafuq.

 

[-Marauder-]

I think the main thing is that xenophobes like that other races are slaves but they hate other races in general so the thing is balanced you hate them as disgusting aliens but like them as slaves. Isnt this fine?

No. Because they get no bonus to happiness at all from enslaving xenos. In fact they hate them being around just the same. It basically just makes them more accepting of xeno slaves EXISTING in general, at least till they lose that trait through divergence. Meanwhile Collectivist removes this ENTIRELY for both xenos and natives, while also giving -10% food consumption and from what I remember access to the purge ability.

Which means, xenophobe currently has pretty much no positives to it, as the unhappiness of having slaves working the mines on their planet almost but not quite reaches the unhappiness over slavery.

 

[kvk]

Xenophobes do get the awesome +10 happiness building, and hey, having slave planets is still an option for them.

 

[Phibs]

Xenophobes do get the awesome +10 happiness building, and hey, having slave planets is still an option for them.

What building?