Xenophiles should strive for alien equality, not alien liberation.

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Seon

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The xenophile faction in this game were displeased with my empire that I was keeping alien slaves. Certainly, it was true that I had recently acquired a few thrifty alien pop from the Subterranean race event chain and was using them to generate energy credits.

RP-wise, I considered them to be semi-tolerated alien race inside my empire: residency but not full citizenship, so that I could continue to take advantage of their thrifty nature to boost my energy production.

My Empress at the time was part of the xenophile faction, however, and xenophillic pops started growing like wildfire, clamoring for the end of alien slavery. As my Empress was part of the xenophile faction and thus had xenophillic sympathies, I figured that it would suit the RP to grant them equal rights as the rest of my citizens.

So I granted them the exact same rights and obligations as my normal pop: Full citizenship with full military service expected and caste system.

The xenophile faction was still not satisfied with this tremendous victory: of winning equal rights with the rest of the empire's citizens, and still clamored for the end of alien slavery. An insane proposition: granting aliens full citizenship would actually place them above my main species, who lived in stratified caste system that I was certainly not going to reform due to it being part of my collectivist ethos. In short, the faction system in Stellaris failed to account for the complexity of situations that arise from natural play.

The current system would hit the xenophile collectivist empire particularly hard, as keeping aliens enslaved, even under equal treatment with the main race in a caste system, would anger the xenophiles, while collectivists would be incensed if you liberated them both and granted them equal citizenship. While happiness debuffs may be remedied, you cannot remedy the influence drop from this as much.

There are few other times when faction systems fails to account for the complexity that arise from natural play. For instance, due to the fact that synths are considered sentient race, their slavery angers the egalitarians in your empire. If you are not playing materialist, you cannot grant AI citizenship rights, and thus egalitarians are permanently angered, which reduces your influence gain from factionalism.


TL;DR: Xenophile factions should, instead of checking for aliens kept in slavery, check whether or not aliens have the same citizenship rights as main species, and also be happier if they are also given same living conditiions.

Egalitarian factions should not seek out synth liberation.
 
Last edited:

Tatterhood

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Yeah, I agree. Authoritarian xenophiles should not have a problem with aliens being oppressed as long as they're not being oppressed because they're aliens.

I realize that RP arguments could be made either way here, but I think the mechanics-based argument the current behaviour makes authoritarian xenophile really awkward to play takes precedence.
 

Seon

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Could some soul also check for collectivist materialists to see if granting AI citizenship rights mean that synths are granted full citizenship rights instead of full citizenship rights with caste system?

In addition, egalitarian faction in general seem too 'merged' with xenophiles in general. Egalitarian faction should not automatically be angered if you only grant residency rights to aliens--this seem far suitable for xenophile faction. I can imagine that this will be incredibly troublesome for xenophobe-egalitarians.
 

Chiiiil

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Absolutely agree. Also they should change egalitarians to care about living standards of full citizens(and maybe residents) and not about absolute equality for everyone else in their empire. Right now xenophobic-egalitarians are unplayable just as xenophile-authoritarians.
 

Emraldis

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Absolutely agree. Also they should change egalitarians to care about living standards of full citizens(and maybe residents) and not about absolute equality for everyone else in their empire. Right now xenophobic-egalitarians are unplayable just as xenophile-authoritarians.
I dunno, that much seems to go against the whole "egalitarian" thing... Egalitarians should definetly care about equal rights for all, since that's the opposite of what authoritarians want.
 

Vanagloria

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I dunno, that much seems to go against the whole "egalitarian" thing... Egalitarians should definetly care about equal rights for all, since that's the opposite of what authoritarians want.
Equal rights for all species is Xenophile's shtick. Equal rights for all individuals is Egalitarian's shtick. Egalitarians should not care about the oppression of other species, except in a Xenophile empire, and especially not in a Xenophobe empire.
 

Tatterhood

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Part of the issue is that, really, xenophile-xenophobe and egalitarian-authoritarian are not orthogonal axes. "Equal rights for all individuals" surely implies that it doesn't depend on species, if there are in fact multiple species around. Choosing which species do and don't get rights is inherently authoritarian.

I'd think that the way for egalitarian+xenophobe to actually make sense would be it to be a kind of ethno-nationalist thing: everyone is equal, but the aliens can kindly go be equal somewhere else. So they'd perhaps be okay with displacing aliens, but not enslaving them.
 

Seon

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Yeah, I also think that egalitarians should seek out to improve living standards for species with residency and full citizenship rights in your empire, as well as heavily oppose caste system, which are authoritarian schtick and non-egalitarian governments.

They should not care xeno slavery, Espescially in a xenophobe empire.
 

CrowScape

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Nonsense. Your xenophile faction simply recognizes their space privilege and the intersectionality between subterranean-ism and energy production. Obviously, you have to give xenos better living standards in order for them to be truly equal, and even then they might not be equal enough.
 

Erei

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I agree to. It makes no sense whatsoever that a society based on a caste system, or slavery, would suddenly decide xenos should live free, while leaving their own pop enslaved. Not only it set a dangerous precedent, but it might not even make sense (they consider the caste system as a "good" thing).

I made a topic similar earlier, and a Paradox people said that was because slavery is very strong, so you have garbage factions. Meanwhile the xenophobe can enslave left and right, the materialist put robots everywhere, and that's just fine.


But there is even worse and funnier, the exact opposite to authoritarian/xenophile, equalitarian/xenophobe. You can't enslave xenos. But you can purge them. Basically, you are a fanatical purifier, but without any of the bonuses. Not to mention how ridiculous it is, you are fine purging aliens, but having them as slave ? Oh no, that's an horrible thing to do !
 

kviiri

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I dunno, that much seems to go against the whole "egalitarian" thing... Egalitarians should definetly care about equal rights for all, since that's the opposite of what authoritarians want.

Restricting equality to only apply to certain races, sexes, nationalities or other granfalloons isn't unheard of in our world, even among societies that base their values on democracy and egalitarianism. Bearing that in mind, I don't really see a problem with xenophobe egalitarians restricting equality from those who are far beyond that - a completely different species.

Xenophobe egalitarians are the guys who want a regime where none of their people are oppressed. They feel that keeping the evil aliens away from parliaments and voting urns is the only way to ensure their own liberty won't be compromised, so they restrict access and voting rights of xenos. Let them vote in their own countries!
 

Erei

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Xenophobe egalitarians are the guys who want a regime where none of their people are oppressed. They feel that keeping the evil aliens away from parliaments and voting urns is the only way to ensure their own liberty won't be compromised, so they restrict access and voting rights of xenos. Let them vote in their own countries!
So, they purge them ? Make sense "we don't want you to vote, foul xeno, so we'll kill you, your family, and your entire species. Nothing personal. On the bright side, we will never enslave you."
 

kviiri

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So, they purge them ? Make sense "we don't want you to vote, foul xeno, so we'll kill you, your family, and your entire species. Nothing personal. On the bright side, we will never enslave you."

They don't have to purge them, but no, I don't think there's any reason why a democratic society couldn't decide to commit genocide. Citizens cherishing *their* equal rights doesn't imply non-citizens having even the luxury of basic legal existence.
 

Erei

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They don't have to purge them, but no, I don't think there's any reason why a democratic society couldn't decide to commit genocide. Citizens cherishing *their* equal rights doesn't imply non-citizens having even the luxury of basic legal existence.
You don't have to, but not purging them will drastically increase the xenophile attraction, and beg the question "why did you pick xenophobe ?". You choose xenophobe as an aethic, but will not purge xenos, and you can't enslave them, what's the point to pick xenophobe ?
Also, I don't say an equalitarian would never purge, I'm pointing out the fact they refuse to enslave because it's evil, but doesn't mind purging.
 

TheDeadlyShoe

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Egalitarians do care about living conditions. Good conditions reduce Authoritarian attraction.
 

Haccoude

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You choose xenophobe as an aethic, but will not purge xenos, and you can't enslave them, what's the point to pick xenophobe ?
I think the point is that Xenophobic Egalitarians (or Egalitarian Xenophobes) should be able to enslave them: "Every person is an individual, and the enslavement of people are one of the greatest evils you can inflict. Aliens aren't people, so they it doesn't apply to them"
 

fofferfoffer

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In a similar situation as the OP, I actually chose to give up on slavery altogether. Funny thing is that the Authoritarian faction still gives a happiness bonus for a stratified society - I guess due to the robots I found on a liberated world!
 

fofferfoffer

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I think the point is that Xenophobic Egalitarians (or Egalitarian Xenophobes) should be able to enslave them: "Every person is an individual, and the enslavement of people are one of the greatest evils you can inflict. Aliens aren't people, so they it doesn't apply to them"

It is a real dilemma. A society too "Egalitarian" to recognize the phobias of its own population. Unrest seems a reasonable result if the real world is anything to go by.
 

Mcwynne

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The game genrally needs more combined ethos factions imo to handle these contradictions. And to over all make the system more interesting/less predictable.

A xenophobe egalitarian could for exaple want a democratic society, high living standards for citizens but no citizensjip for xenos. I would probably still give a happiness bonus for prohibiting xeno slavery (but no penalty for allowing it).