Xenophiles are the Worst at Integrating Species

[Inkidu]

I know this might seem a little contrarian of me, but Xenophiles are supposed to be the empire that's made up of tons of aliens. However, they're hands down the worst at it. The absolute worst.

Here's why:

1.) They start at Passive Observation. This is fine because you can generally switch it immediately, but for people who are supposed to uplift and integrate other aliens. They've got the hands down slowest ways of doing it. Uplifting and protectorates. Protectorates are lame.

If you play other more aggressive ways you can instantly integrate various primitive races. Protectorate induction too slow. You have to wait forever to integrate subjects where the old iron fist now soften later is quicker and more efficient.

2.) They get all these nice bonuses to making other races feel included, but I'm in the first century of my space empire, and I have to wait years for this protectorate to vassalize, and it's just so boring. So what good are techs if I never get to use them?

3.) You can't even form federations all that easily. Having a different war philosophy or a few sticking policy points is enough to hold off federation forever.

As a fair but balanced Hegemony I've done better than any Xenophile empire ever.

This needs to be seriously addressed (much like xenophobe, as these are the weakest and least fun to play, and they should be some of the most engaging. I know Utopia is looking to address some of this, but I'm afraid it might not go far enough.

We're getting a lot on psychics and slavery, but what about cosmopolitan empires that can use the strength of all its make up being?

 

[Emraldis]

Xenophiles on their own aren't usually the kind that go around conquering or making protectorates...

 

[Inkidu]

Still doesn't mean you won't end up with a few protectorates. I picked up one by Enlightenment and one by a Guild Station deciding it wanted to settle down. Both loved me. Why would it be so hard to integrate them into a respectful society that appreciates their contributions?

 

[Emraldis]

Still doesn't mean you won't end up with a few protectorates. I picked up one by Enlightenment and one by a Guild Station deciding it wanted to settle down. Both loved me. Why would it be so hard to integrate them into a respectful society that appreciates their contributions?

Yeah that's fair. Perhaps xenophiles should get a bonus to integration speed, either that, or perhaps integration speed should be tied to how much the integratee likes the integrator...

 

[Voidlord]

Yea I think Xenophiles as they are don't really work. They need a choice that's Covert Infilitration in all but name

 

[Inkidu]

I think the protectorate/vassal mechanic needs a redo. It just feels redundant. I understand how they think it's supposed to work:

The idea behind the research bonus of the protectorate is that it's supposed to eventually become a vassal, but here's the thing. You don't stop researching, and it's possible for a protectorate to remain a protectorate for centuries, especially if you're in a science boom.

As it actually works it's more like you wait and wait do do nothing with this empire that's right in the middle of your own. I could release them, but then someone esle would gobble them up. So... what's the point of this redundant system? It just draws out the whole process needlessly.

 

[Zaltys]

Xenophiles on their own aren't usually the kind that go around conquering or making protectorates...

Not conquering, no.
But liberation wars are a different matter altogether. Can't allow those pro-purge empires to flourish, right?

And winning liberation wars results in numerous small empires that share my ethics, who then usually end up becoming protectorates (if they don't immediately join my federation).

Yeah that's fair. Perhaps xenophiles should get a bonus to integration speed, either that, or perhaps integration speed should be tied to how much the integratee likes the integrator...

I don't think the latter would work well. I usually have so many protectorates that they all absolutely hate me, because of that opinion penalty from relative strength. ...even though they're the ones who asked to become protectorates in the first place. Kind of weird, that.

 

[Emraldis]

Yeah, thinking about this some more makes me think that the different subject types should really be merged into one group, and that subjects should be able to have a certain set of rights set for them as to what they can do. The empire that wants to subjugate them can then (where they'd normally demand vassalisation, or offer protectorate status) offer subject status, and state the rights they'd be willing to give them as subjects. This could allow for more options for subjects and subject freedom. So rather than going up to a week civilization you've just uplifted in the middle of your empire and offering protectorate status, you offer them subject status, giving them say a research deal, a defensive pact, and free migration between each other. This good deal would improve your relations on top of the relationship bonus from having uplifted them, following which, you could easily integrate them into your empire (using my previous suggestion that integration of subjects be based on relationship).

 

[artemis667]

Protectorates are great though. Easy influence while you have them, no issues with unhappy and unproductive pops in your empire, and they do catch up in tech at least in the most recent patches. You have to pay some of that influence back when you integrate them as a vassal. I play xenophile usually though, and I like how it all works.

 

[Inkidu]

Protectorates are great though. Easy influence while you have them, no issues with unhappy and unproductive pops in your empire, and they do catch up in tech at least in the most recent patches. You have to pay some of that influence back when you integrate them as a vassal. I play xenophile usually though, and I like how it all works.

Mmm... that's not been my experience. Generally while they're not a drain, they're not contributing that much to your empire. I regularly hit the cap on influence without the boost, but they're not exactly working for your empire. They're just sitting their riding on your coat tails.

 

[Zaltys]

Mmm... that's not been my experience. Generally while they're not a drain, they're not contributing that much to your empire. I regularly hit the cap on influence without the boost, but they're not exactly working for your empire. They're just sitting their riding on your coat tails.

Yep. Although the influence boost is nice, I'd get far more use out of the systems that they're hoarding (which usually have all kinds of sweet research boosts, etc).

And I tend to play tech-focused empires, so protectorates never become vassals. By the time they start outpacing my research, I'm already so close to winning that there's no time for them to catch up before the game ends.

 

[moglus]

I always found it super strange that xenophiles (especially fanatic ones) don't really have any way to integrate aliens into their empire, indeed, only non xenophiles do. Which seems counterintuitive. Tbh xenophiles are probably the only ethos that looks at primitives and goes "They deserve better, we could give them better". But they don't have any way of actually... doing that.

 

[Emraldis]

Tbh xenophiles are probably the only ethos that looks a primitives and goes "They deserve better, we could give them better". But they don't have any way of actually... doing that.

Alternatively, they are also one of the only ones that would go, "you know what, we learned a lot from all those years developing our society and technology, we can't just take that opportunity away from these people, we shouldn't interfere."

 

[Inkidu]

I always found it super strange that xenophiles (especially fanatic ones) don't really have any way to integrate aliens into their empire, indeed, only non xenophiles do. Which seems counterintuitive. Tbh xenophiles are probably the only ethos that looks at primitives and goes "They deserve better, we could give them better". But they don't have any way of actually... doing that.

That's my problem. I'm hoping that Banks and Utopia are actually not just going to touch on the Indi-collecti rework, but what it means to be a xenophile or phobe.

Xenophiles almost feel like they're straw xenophiles. "Oh we enjoy diversity in the galaxy, but we wouldn't want them actually living on our planet without their migration visas."

There is such a great difficulty in making a cosmopolitan empire in this game, you might as well just kill all the aliens. It's easier.

 

[moglus]

Alternatively, they are also one of the only ones that would go, "you know what, we learned a lot from all those years developing our society and technology, we can't just take that opportunity away from these people, we shouldn't interfere."

Which kinda seems contradictory to the fanatical xenophile ethos:

"If there ever was such a thing as an absolute moral imperative, it would be to explore the cosmos and embrace all within it. We were never meant to journey alone."

Every other ethos has "extremes" fanatical purifiers, democratic crusaders, et cetera. So how come xenophiles are so... moderate?

 

[Vishaing]

If you want to get Pops from a Protectorate before it becomes a Vassal just grant them a Migration Treaty. Maybe its because I exclusively play on >=1000 Star Galaxies but the only time I've ever had Protectorates sitting on something that I personally have wanted is Sanctuary, and I just use the Console to integrate them immediately until Paradox manages to make Subject Interactions that are actually fun and interesting.

Really though Xenophile should have composite Policies unlocked by other Ethos. I mean on one hand there could be Star Trek Federation style Xenophiles who pursue a Hands-Off Policy (Xenophile + Pacafist), others could see themselves as Enlightening Savages but letting them retain their homes as Reservations (Xenophile + Egalitarian), or there could be a Species that regards other species as amusing Pets, enlightening and integrating them immediately into a Caste Society (Xenophile + ummm... If this were Expanded Ethos I would recommend Elitist, so I guess Authoritarian?).

 

[Inkidu]

Alternatively, they are also one of the only ones that would go, "you know what, we learned a lot from all those years developing our society and technology, we can't just take that opportunity away from these people, we shouldn't interfere."

That's a fair point, just like a xenophobe can be a kill-em-all or isolationist, but the advantages of having other races in your empire outweighs non-interference. It still feels really halfhearted, because even fan-xenophiles have the Tech Uplift from the get go.

"It's more the Prime Strong Suggestion."

 

[moglus]

That's my problem. I'm hoping that Banks and Utopia are actually not just going to touch on the Indi-collecti rework, but what it means to be a xenophile or phobe.

Xenophiles almost feel like they're straw xenophiles. "Oh we enjoy diversity in the galaxy, but we wouldn't want them actually living on our planet without their migration visas."

There is such a great difficulty in making a cosmopolitan empire in this game, you might as well just kill all the aliens. It's easier.

If nothing else it will allow xenophiles to get more aliens through refugees. Which seems nice.

 

[Inkidu]

If you want to get Pops from a Protectorate before it becomes a Vassal just grant them a Migration Treaty. Maybe its because I exclusively play on >=1000 Star Galaxies but the only time I've ever had Protectorates sitting on something that I personally have wanted is Sanctuary, and I just use the Console to integrate them immediately until Paradox manages to make Subject Interactions that are actually fun and interesting.

Xenophile covers a lot of ground like all of them do though. And some situations wouldn't fall under a prime directive situation (like my previously stated enclavers who want to settle down in your territory. Integration just needs to be done better.

 

[Sportsmaster]

Apparently, protectorates can be integrated in Banks. No more waiting forever for them to vassalize.

Also, empires will be able to impose their ethics onto developing pre-space species (including stone age primitives) in Banks, and this will be incredibly useful for xenophiles. They will lose their alien-adjacency happiness buff, but that does not seem to matter much anymore. I wonder... are xenophiles the only ones capable of full alien citizenship?