Xenophile attraction is still too strong

[Verx90]

this is the most realistic, and unrealistic thing of the game ...

since entire generation have to live with xeno , they get used to have them around and live with them, they start to considerate them as part of theyr comunity and culture and so theyr acceptance of theyr presence become obvius , a "xenophile attraction" the idea of going back on them is pure idiocity for them .

on the other side, there should be a strong push for xenophobe to become extremist, as they considerate the xeno as inferior and\or evil, watching them becoming part of theyr nation and population is a form of corruption and a deadly mistake for theyr empire. they teach theyr children and those children will become more and more extremist as they will be ostracized by theyr peer and will live only with other with the same mentality .

there should be rework of the factions and internal politics to rapresent better a xenophile\xenophobe political attraction , but for now i think the system is the best it could be.

there is xenophile attraction when you have long history of interaction with xeno , as there is xenophobe attraction when there are races with "bad" traits ( being ugly , weak , push xenophobe ) or having rivality \ empires enslaving your pops, wars .




in my experience , the 2 ethics that are always stronger and stronger are spiritualist and xenophile , i think i had only 1 -2 games in the last 2 years where almost all empires were xenophobe and the rest of the empires actualy started to embrace it , because there were not TW factions to smooth the early game diplomacy , and most empires spawned as xenophobe (+ all megacorporations were syndacate).

 

[DeanTheDull]

I think you’re fundamentally missing the point. I’m not saying you can’t handle it as a player, I’m not saying it’s a problem within my own empire, I’m saying the fact that the only way to stop it from happening by adopting the tactics you describe is the problem.

It’s such a large bonus that is largely passively gained that even if an AI can do the other things, that 5.33x attraction is happening anyway.

I think you're fundamentally missing the point that I'm not talking about handling it within your own empire, but outside of it.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

I think you're fundamentally missing the point that I'm not talking about handling it within your own empire, but outside of it.

Yeah we’re talking in circles so let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

this is the most realistic, and unrealistic thing of the game ...

since entire generation have to live with xeno , they get used to have them around and live with them, they start to considerate them as part of theyr comunity and culture and so theyr acceptance of theyr presence become obvius , a "xenophile attraction" the idea of going back on them is pure idiocity for them .

on the other side, there should be a strong push for xenophobe to become extremist, as they considerate the xeno as inferior and\or evil, watching them becoming part of theyr nation and population is a form of corruption and a deadly mistake for theyr empire. they teach theyr children and those children will become more and more extremist as they will be ostracized by theyr peer and will live only with other with the same mentality .

there should be rework of the factions and internal politics to rapresent better a xenophile\xenophobe political attraction , but for now i think the system is the best it could be.

there is xenophile attraction when you have long history of interaction with xeno , as there is xenophobe attraction when there are races with "bad" traits ( being ugly , weak , push xenophobe ) or having rivality \ empires enslaving your pops, wars .




in my experience , the 2 ethics that are always stronger and stronger are spiritualist and xenophile , i think i had only 1 -2 games in the last 2 years where almost all empires were xenophobe and the rest of the empires actualy started to embrace it , because there were not TW factions to smooth the early game diplomacy , and most empires spawned as xenophobe (+ all megacorporations were syndacate).

As mentioned earlier, I’m happy for there to be a drift to xenophile over time, but much longer than it is now.

By reducing some of the weights for this (and maybe sharply increasing values for more specific factors of ethics drift elsewhere) it would take longer for lasting alliances to become xenophilic, but as of now it’s one of the only ethics changes in AI empires that I see, and provide more opportunity for other ethics shifting to take place.

RE: Spiritualist - I do see this in some games, but only where AI’s have taken psi ascension, or if the spiritualist GC resolutions are at level 3+ but I think that’s working as intended.

Another way to do this would be to apply more ethics attraction to specific GC resolutions eg Militarist for the readied shield etc.

 

[Paul93]

Maybe the devs should switch from continuous to one-time modifiers for ethic attraction, like party attraction in Endless Space 2. In this way either you continue to act in accordance a certain ethic, or this ethic will fade away. On the other hand, you will be able take certain decisions (like allying with other empires) without dooming your national ideology, provided you counter them sufficiently.

Consider the following example (numbers are obviously made up).
(1) You are fanatic egalitarian and xenophobe, so your initial ethic proportions are like 35% egalitarian, 25% xenophobe and 6.7% for all the other ethics. Suppose to have already another race in your empire which somehow starts with citizenship rights.
(2) Then you make an alliance, which produce a one-time bump in xenophile attraction equal to 10%. As such, the new proportions are 35-(10/7)=33.6% egalitarian, 25-(10/7)=23.6% xenophobe, 6.7+10=16.7% xenophile and 6.7-(10/7)=5.3% for the remaining ethics.
(3) Now you strip the xeno race in your empire from its citizenship. This action produce a one-time bump in xenophobe attraction equal to 10%, so the new proportions are 33.6-(10/7)=32.2% egalitarian, 23.6+10=33.6% xenophobe, 16.7-(10/7)=15.3% xenophile and 5.3-(10/7)=3.9% for the remaining ethics. In time, provided you are true to your values, you will be able to erode xenophile attraction without cancelling the alliance. Obviously, you cannot switch alliances many times, since each time you take this action you have a one-time xenophile attraction bump. But if you are xenophobe, you are not expected to do it, actually.

Instead of having a fixed extra xenophile attraction for the rest of the game that will be difficult/impossible to suppress, you have something that you can interact with in a more dynamical way. It is better also in other situations, since it builds a more clear link between player actions and ethic attractions.

Little extra: instead of subtracting uniformly from all the other ethics, these one-time modifiers can be made as to subtract mainly from the opposite ethics. In the example above, the alliance action would subtract 5% directly from xenophobe and 5/6=0.83% from the other ethics, instead of 1.42% from all the ethics.

 

[BrokenSky]

this is the most realistic, and unrealistic thing of the game ...

since entire generation have to live with xeno , they get used to have them around and live with them, they start to considerate them as part of theyr comunity and culture and so theyr acceptance of theyr presence become obvius , a "xenophile attraction" the idea of going back on them is pure idiocity for them .

on the other side, there should be a strong push for xenophobe to become extremist, as they considerate the xeno as inferior and\or evil, watching them becoming part of theyr nation and population is a form of corruption and a deadly mistake for theyr empire. they teach theyr children and those children will become more and more extremist as they will be ostracized by theyr peer and will live only with other with the same mentality .

there should be rework of the factions and internal politics to rapresent better a xenophile\xenophobe political attraction , but for now i think the system is the best it could be.

there is xenophile attraction when you have long history of interaction with xeno , as there is xenophobe attraction when there are races with "bad" traits ( being ugly , weak , push xenophobe ) or having rivality \ empires enslaving your pops, wars .




in my experience , the 2 ethics that are always stronger and stronger are spiritualist and xenophile , i think i had only 1 -2 games in the last 2 years where almost all empires were xenophobe and the rest of the empires actualy started to embrace it , because there were not TW factions to smooth the early game diplomacy , and most empires spawned as xenophobe (+ all megacorporations were syndacate).

I mean if xenos everywhere became the norm, wouldn't Xenos' right's become a non-issue and pops would move to issues they cared about which were less generally accepted?

 

[The Bored Chairman]

I agree that the shift is a bit extreme.

Just because you can cooperate with Xenos doesn't mean you should be flooded with Xenophile attraction.

The real factor should be Xeno pops, not diplomacy. You can have agreements with other nations and still maintain a reasonable level of detachment. For instance, an empire with a Commercial Pact wouldn't be bosom buddies with their partner, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement.

It's not personal, just business.

Personally, I think the real issue at play is the lack of depth with regards to internal politics. Empire relationships are too simple at the current state, with little to no nuance to them. Other empires either like you or don't, there's no wiggle room (unless you want to count Neutral, which only applies if they're across the galaxy).

 

[Losttruppen]

RE: Spiritualist - I do see this in some games, but only where AI’s have taken psi ascension, or if the spiritualist GC resolutions are at level 3+ but I think that’s working as intended.

Doesn't having picked transcendence or having psionic pops in your empire increase the chance of other species in your empire and neighbouring empires to gain the latent-psionic trait?

It seems a big culprit in xenophile and spiritualist being overrepresented is from the frequency and abundance of migration pacts. I understand these have a pretty important role, especially since 3.0s pop rework, but I wouldn't mind if the galaxy was a bit less of a free for all with regards to trust and pacts. I would prefer a colder, more gradual opening of borders and relations than we currently have. It is far to easy to assign your 2+ envoys to improve relations with opposing neighbours and get your pacts and move on to the next. The snowball rolls too fast in my opinion, at least for 1000 stars and 30 AI.

 

[hart30]

The positive modifiers through pacts of any kind, even subject go way overboard. And this then improves the xenophile attraction. In the end of the game the galaxy always consists out of two giant federations, which everyone loving eachother. Both feds do not even go to war against eachother anymore and the game dies of boredom.

 

[Foxosaur]

I agree that there just in general a common theme of a gradual shift of the galaxy to xenophile tendencies, I also think there should be better distinction between a fanatic xenophobia and just being a xenophobe. It feels both give very little in the way of diplomacy in terms of AI behaviour when there should be a marked difference between either choice- E.g nil-little to little-some whilst a xenophile is like to have some-lots of relationships.

Could be better and different ^^

 

[Casko]

You'd think there would also be a xenophobe attraction if your main pops were mostly stuck at lower jobs, while you minmax species with better traits to be all the scientists and leaders. Or just from the fact there are more xenos at some fridge planets than primary species. - See also "They're stealing our jobs" argument but in Spezzz.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

You'd think there would also be a xenophobe attraction if your main pops were mostly stuck at lower jobs, while you minmax species with better traits to be all the scientists and leaders. Or just from the fact there are more xenos at some fridge planets than primary species. - See also "They're stealing our jobs" argument but in Spezzz.

I did propose in a previous thread that regarding all free pops of a species that have alien pops on the same world, those with a 60%+ happiness would get increased attraction rate towards xenophile, while the same but happiness below 40% would create as much xenophobe attraction to simulate something like this.