Xenophile attraction is still too strong

[Cat_Fuzz]

By the mid game, most empires (excluding xenophobes) are in some way xenophile due to alliances (federations / migration treaties and so on).

The ethics pull towards this is huge also if you make any of the above treaties with another (especially so when you have multiple full citizen species in an empire.)

Any way these numbers can be better balanced in the next patch or two?

 

[Frederick III]

By the mid game, most empires (excluding xenophobes) are in some way xenophile due to alliances (federations / migration treaties and so on).

The ethics pull towards this is huge also if you make any of the above treaties with another (especially so when you have multiple full citizen species in an empire.)

Any way these numbers can be better balanced in the next patch or two?

I'm confused. Why is this a problem? Your species has experience with other alien races. The know that relations can be peacefully cooperative, that different alien species can live together under one roof and share the same political entity. Why shouldn't they become increasingly Xenophile in their political persuasions? I would hope that constant experience with Fanatic Purifiers would have the opposite effect.

 

[Arutar]

I dont think you need to reduce the xenophile attraction.

Just reduce the willingness of non-xenophile AI to enter migration treaties and federations. (EDIT: I mean I agree that the AI often becomes more xenophile during a game, rarely the other way round)

And for the player: If you choose to enter into migration treaties, a federation and have multiple full citizen rights aliens, you should have a significant xenophile pressure. So just dont do this?

 

[Strangedane]

And for the player: If you choose to enter into migration treaties, a federation and have multiple full citizen rights aliens, you should have a significant xenophile pressure. So just dont do this?

Yeah I agree in part.

The problem is that either you have residence or citizenship, IE "free" aliens, and they give massive xenophile attraction or you have them all enslaved and get xenophobe attraction.

There is no way for a non-authoritarian to not get drowned in xenophile attraction after conquests.

We really need residency to give massively reduced xenophile attraction.

 

[DeanTheDull]

Yeah I agree in part.

The problem is that either you have residence or citizenship, IE "free" aliens, and they give massive xenophile attraction or you have them all enslaved and get xenophobe attraction.

There is no way for a non-authoritarian to not get drowned in xenophile attraction after conquests.

There are two- being a Xenophobe, and being a Spiritualist.

Xenophobes, through slavery and avoiding diplomatic engagements, can avoid Xenophile attraction while engaging in the practical benefits of expansion. Xenophobes can use envoys for espionage (enemy fleet tracking, tech theft, etc.) and avoid being Xenophiled.

Spiritualists can just drown a lake of Xenophile attraction with Oceans more Spiritualist attraction. Spiritualists have more sources of spiritualist attraction and far greater stacking ability, complete with a galaxy-wide modifier through the Galactic Community chain, and are also not limited from any particular economic model.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

The point I’m making is that whenever there is a notification to indicate ethics shift in other empires, there’s a 1/100 chance it won’t be someone pulling xenophile, despite some being constantly at war, or building lots of robots. It is mostly xenophile.

Part of this problem is that if an empire has either a defensive pact, federation, or a migration treaty AND has species with equal rights or residency, it’s a combined 4x pull to xenophile - excluding any other modifiers. It’s one of the strongest out there as most provide 1.5x or less.

I suggested reducing this attraction, but an alternative would be to strengthen ways where other ethics could take hold.

 

[jaredstanko]

all my custom xenophobe empires flip xenophile. its actually funny, but its clearly at least a little broken since i almost never see an ethics shift in ANY other direction

 

[DeanTheDull]

The point I’m making is that whenever there is a notification to indicate ethics shift in other empires, there’s a 1/100 chance it won’t be someone pulling xenophile, despite some being constantly at war, or building lots of robots. It is mostly xenophile.

Part of this problem is that if an empire has either a defensive pact, federation, or a migration treaty AND has species with equal rights or residency, it’s a 4x pull to xenophile - excluding any other modifiers. It’s one of the strongest out there.

For Xenophile, the max modifiers from diplomatic pacts, a free alien on the world, allowing alien leaders, is x4.

For Egalitarian, the diplomatic engagements with a Egalitarian empire, Democratic authority, and Egalitarian living standards is x4.6+.

For Materialist, a research agreement with a materialist and research federation and robot on the planet is x3.

For Spiritualist, the Psionic Ascension path alone is x3. Diplomatic engagement (Migration and any commerce/defense/federation) with spiritualists is another x3. Being the subject of a Spiritualist is another x2.
(This doesn't even address the host of more specific modifiers.)


The issue isn't weighting strength from diplomatic strength, but who you are diplomatically engaging. Xenophiles are more flexible, but not necessarily stronger.

I suggested reducing this attraction, but an alternative would be to strengthen ways where other ethics could take hold.

There is such an option- using ideology wars, which most people don't do because they prefer subjugation/conquest wars.

The strongest way to reinforce most ethics is to ideology war your primary diplomatic partners and their partners. Which is one of the roles of the Federation law banning external diplomatic deals- it keeps everyone on the same ethics pressure page.

 

[Zander]

I'm confused. Why is this a problem? Your species has experience with other alien races. The know that relations can be peacefully cooperative, that different alien species can live together under one roof and share the same political entity. Why shouldn't they become increasingly Xenophile in their political persuasions? I would hope that constant experience with Fanatic Purifiers would have the opposite effect.

Of course! Just like how on real Earth, racism and nationalism were wiped out in a few decades once we encountered other peoples. Especially the experience of conquering other peoples - that always makes notions less xenophobic. Also receiving refugees - nations that receive refugees famously always become pro-integration as a result.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

For Xenophile, the max modifiers from diplomatic pacts, a free alien on the world, allowing alien leaders, is x4.

For Egalitarian, the diplomatic engagements with a Egalitarian empire, Democratic authority, and Egalitarian living standards is x4.6+.

For Materialist, a research agreement with a materialist and research federation and robot on the planet is x3.

For Spiritualist, the Psionic Ascension path alone is x3. Diplomatic engagement (Migration and any commerce/defense/federation) with spiritualists is another x3. Being the subject of a Spiritualist is another x2.
(This doesn't even address the host of more specific modifiers.)


The issue isn't weighting strength from diplomatic strength, but who you are diplomatically engaging. Xenophiles are more flexible, but not necessarily stronger.




There is such an option- using ideology wars, which most people don't do because they prefer subjugation/conquest wars.

The strongest way to reinforce most ethics is to ideology war your primary diplomatic partners and their partners. Which is one of the roles of the Federation law banning external diplomatic deals- it keeps everyone on the same ethics pressure page.

I’m not talking about my own empire, I’m talking about the AI, which is limited by what it can and can’t do to mitigate ethics attraction.

Also the number for xenophile ethics attraction are:

2.0x - Pop is not enslaved and a sapient free alien pop is on the world

2.0x - Pop is an alien, does not have full citizenship and is not enslaved

1.5x - Allows alien leaders

1.5x - Non-subject alien empire has migration access

1.5x - A charismatic alien pop is on the world

1.33x - In a defensive pact, commercial pact or Federation with an alien empire

Now let’s remove the charismatic trait, and assume that if you’re allied with a nation, you’ll have a migration treaty and if you’re not authoritarian that allows slaves, (which isn’t every authoritarian empire) or xenophobe, that’s a natural 5.33x attraction to xenophile, simply by AI empires forming alliances.

The only other ethic to come close to this is Militarist, but a very specific set of circumstances need to be achieved to make it happen (allow military service and for a planet to be occupied) at 5x. Or xenophobe IF someone is genociding your empires (which is unlikely as most empires are xenophile by the time they can start doing this

What I’m saying is, it’s really very easy for AI’s to get that 5.33x attraction, whereas others need very specific circumstances to achieve similar levels, hence why most empires are xenophile by mid-game.

 

[Derp Throat]

I'm confused. Why is this a problem? Your species has experience with other alien races. The know that relations can be peacefully cooperative, that different alien species can live together under one roof and share the same political entity. Why shouldn't they become increasingly Xenophile in their political persuasions? I would hope that constant experience with Fanatic Purifiers would have the opposite effect.

It's not a problem by itself but empires are limited to 3 ethic points. When every empire starts going xenophile, it means fewer materialists, spiritualists etc.

 

[SteelCrow]

I've had frustrations in the past where allowing just one xeno species supposedly means you like all of them. An event spawned a couple alien pops on a planet? Get ready to lose your governing ethics. And please make those Ketlings go away.

I can imagine a case where two equally sapient species see each other as bonded brothers or something, but distrust outsiders.
Another potentially multi-species organization that distrusts outsiders? Crime rings.

 

[DeanTheDull]

I’m not talking about my own empire, I’m talking about the AI, which is limited by what it can and can’t do to mitigate ethics attraction.

Also the number for xenophile ethics attraction are:

2.0x - Pop is not enslaved and a sapient free alien pop is on the world

2.0x - Pop is an alien, does not have full citizenship and is not enslaved

1.5x - Allows alien leaders

1.5x - Non-subject alien empire has migration access

1.5x - A charismatic alien pop is on the world

1.33x - In a defensive pact, commercial pact or Federation with an alien empire

Now let’s remove the charismatic trait, and assume that if you’re allied with a nation, you’ll have a migration treaty and if you’re not authoritarian that allows slaves, (which isn’t every authoritarian empire) or xenophobe, that’s a natural 5.33x attraction to xenophile, simply by AI empires forming alliances.

The only other ethic to come close to this is Militarist, but a very specific set of circumstances need to be achieved to make it happen (allow military service and for a planet to be occupied) at 5x. Or xenophobe IF someone is genociding your empires (which is unlikely as most empires are xenophile by the time they can start doing this

What I’m saying is, it’s really very easy for AI’s to get that 5.33x attraction, whereas others need very specific circumstances to achieve similar levels, hence why most empires are xenophile by mid-game.

Which, again, repeats the previous point- manage it via ideology wars and federations, which create those specific circumstances. Or use spiritualist ethics, which become even stronger when enforced by a spiritualist on others.

Between ideology wars, Black Op starbases, and technologies, it's quite possible to counter a natural xenophile spread. You just need to be proactive, and not simply be prioritizing your own territorial expansion.

 

[BrokenSky]

Which, again, repeats the previous point- manage it via ideology wars and federations, which create those specific circumstances. Or use spiritualist ethics, which become even stronger when enforced by a spiritualist on others.

Between ideology wars, Black Op starbases, and technologies, it's quite possible to counter a natural xenophile spread. You just need to be proactive, and not simply be prioritizing your own territorial expansion.

When has the AI ever been proactive?

 

[DeanTheDull]

When has the AI ever been proactive?

Early AI will sometimes attempt ideology wars, though in my experience that's mostly been pacifists (lol), egalitarians, and xenophiles.

The player being proactive, however, is what makes it within your ability to manage.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

Which, again, repeats the previous point- manage it via ideology wars and federations, which create those specific circumstances. Or use spiritualist ethics, which become even stronger when enforced by a spiritualist on others.

I’m not talking about my own empire, I’m talking about the AI, which is limited by what it can and can’t do to mitigate ethics attraction.

I know perfectly well how to manage it in my own empire, but I can’t control how the AI manages it, which is the issue at hand. Kind of ruins the idea of being in a ‘vast, diverse galaxy’ when 90% of it are all friends within 50 years. And I shouldn’t be the arbiter of everyone else’s xenophile drift by having to interject my empire alone.

At the very least, I’d like to see more militarist if there’s a lot of wars going on, or other ethics reflected through the changes that empires encounter.

I also don’t want there to not be xenophile drift, but maybe if empires have been friends for like 100 years then sure.

 

[DeanTheDull]

I know perfectly well how to manage it in my own empire, but I can’t control how the AI manages it, which is the issue at hand.

And, again, you can- you are the pressure on the AI's ethics, and what pressures they face, both in diplomacy and in war. Engaging in diplomacy is exactly how you pressure the AI towards your non-xenophile ethics.

If you are the Spiritualist/Materialist/Egalitarian, and you have the Trade/Migration/Defense pacts with someone, you are applying your ethics onto them them even before ideology wars get involved. And if you do invoke ideology wars, than you create self-reinforcing diplomatic systems, where a bunch of egalitarians/spiritualists/materialists are joined in diplomacy with eachother that reinforces the dominant ethics. Xenophile and Authoritarian are hyper-concetrated due to how the slave/no-slave pressures work- it's always either one or the other- but other empire's ethics are manageable.

Most people just don't want to, because it requires spending influence and diplomacy and wars for something other than territory or vassalization.

 

[jaredstanko]

And, again, you can- you are the pressure on the AI's ethics, and what pressures they face, both in diplomacy and in war. Engaging in diplomacy is exactly how you pressure the AI towards your non-xenophile ethics.

If you are the Spiritualist/Materialist/Egalitarian, and you have the Trade/Migration/Defense pacts with someone, you are applying your ethics onto them them even before ideology wars get involved. And if you do invoke ideology wars, than you create self-reinforcing diplomatic systems, where a bunch of egalitarians/spiritualists/materialists are joined in diplomacy with eachother that reinforces the dominant ethics. Xenophile and Authoritarian are hyper-concetrated due to how the slave/no-slave pressures work- it's always either one or the other- but other empire's ethics are manageable.

Most people just don't want to, because it requires spending influence and diplomacy and wars for something other than territory or vassalization.

this is just "if the game is broken, play a determined exterminator" repackaged

i want a vibrant galactic scene!

 

[rubert]

Agreed, so much. Even non-migration treaties can turn Xenophobe empires to Xenophiles, especially if they are threatened by somebody else which makes them more likely to sign the initial treaties. It can cause other issues, too. Eg. Empires unable to raise any other faction to 20% treshold so they could embrace even if they are in violation of some Galactic Community edict.

I posted suggestion about this last year, I guess somebody could post new one, too.

Reduce Xenophile attraction

Problem: Currently many normal AI empires embrace Xenophile faction because diplomacy gives pretty big boost to Xenophile attraction and AI agrees to Commercial treaties etc. fairly easily. Suggestion: reduce Xenophile attraction from diplomacy...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Currently only Materialists with Synthetic Ascension, Spiritualists with Psionic Ascension can "fight" against the Xenophile faction in non-slaving empires if they somehow end up with Xeno pops.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

And, again, you can- you are the pressure on the AI's ethics, and what pressures they face, both in diplomacy and in war. Engaging in diplomacy is exactly how you pressure the AI towards your non-xenophile ethics.

If you are the Spiritualist/Materialist/Egalitarian, and you have the Trade/Migration/Defense pacts with someone, you are applying your ethics onto them them even before ideology wars get involved. And if you do invoke ideology wars, than you create self-reinforcing diplomatic systems, where a bunch of egalitarians/spiritualists/materialists are joined in diplomacy with eachother that reinforces the dominant ethics. Xenophile and Authoritarian are hyper-concetrated due to how the slave/no-slave pressures work- it's always either one or the other- but other empire's ethics are manageable.

Most people just don't want to, because it requires spending influence and diplomacy and wars for something other than territory or vassalization.

I think you’re fundamentally missing the point. I’m not saying you can’t handle it as a player, I’m not saying it’s a problem within my own empire, I’m saying the fact that the only way to stop it from happening by adopting the tactics you describe is the problem.

It’s such a large bonus that is largely passively gained that even if an AI can do the other things, that 5.33x attraction is happening anyway.