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Bentusi16

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Ours is to conquer the stars; any who stand against us shall kneel or die.

Honestly this will probably be how it works. I don't see humanity going out of its way to exterminate alien life but we aren't going to consider it a bump on the road if we go down the past of universal manifest destiny. Whic HI think we will.
 
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in western culture outside of certain areas (looking at you Castilians) people of color specifically black people were not seen as inferior until the age of colonization. Actually they were usually seen as exotic and intelligent, notable examples being Othello and the Ethiopian kingdom.
 
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Shiolle

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I cannot help but post this. Sorry for the long read; tldr version: http://xkcd.com/1377/

So, from "Killing Star" by Charles Pellegrino and George Zebrowski (text taken from Atomic Rockets website):

The great silence (i.e. absence of SETI signals from alien civilizations) is perhaps the strongest indicator of all that high relativistic velocities are attainable and that everybody out there knows it.

The sobering truth is that relativistic civilizations are a potential nightmare to anyone living within range of them. The problem is that objects traveling at an appreciable fraction of light speed are never where you see them when you see them (i.e., light-speed lag). Relativistic rockets, if their owners turn out to be less than benevolent, are both totally unstoppable and totally destructive. A starship weighing in at 1,500 tons (approximately the weight of a fully fueled space shuttle sitting on the launchpad) impacting an earthlike planet at "only" 30 percent of lightspeed will release 1.5 million megatons of energy -- an explosive force equivalent to 150 times today's global nuclear arsenal...

I'm not going to talk about ideas. I'm going to talk about reality. It will probably not be good for us ever to build and fire up an antimatter engine. According to Powell, given the proper detecting devices, a Valkyrie engine burn could be seen out to a radius of several light-years and may draw us into a game we'd rather not play, a game in which, if we appear to be even the vaguest threat to another civilization and if the resources are available to eliminate us, then it is logical to do so.

The game plan is, in its simplest terms, the relativistic inverse to the golden rule: "Do unto the other fellow as he would do unto you and do it first."...

When we put our heads together and tried to list everything we could say with certainty about other civilizations, without having actually met them, all that we knew boiled down to three simple laws of alien behavior:

  1. THEIR SURVIVAL WILL BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN OUR SURVIVAL.
    If an alien species has to choose between them and us, they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't survive by being self-sacrificing.

  2. WIMPS DON'T BECOME TOP DOGS.
    No species makes it to the top by being passive. The species in charge of any given planet will be highly intelligent, alert, aggressive, and ruthless when necessary.

  3. THEY WILL ASSUME THAT THE FIRST TWO LAWS APPLY TO US.
...

Your thinking still seems a bit narrow. Consider several broadening ideas:

  1. Sure, relativistic bombs are powerful because the antagonist has already invested huge energies in them that can be released quickly, and they're hard to hit. But they are costly investments and necessarily reduce other activities the species could explore. For example:
  2. Dispersal of the species into many small, hard-to-see targets, such as asteroids, buried civilizations, cometary nuclei, various space habitats. These are hard to wipe out.
  3. But wait -- while relativistic bombs are readily visible to us in foresight, they hardly represent the end point in foreseeable technology. What will humans of, say, two centuries hence think of as the "obvious" lethal effect? Five centuries? A hundred? Personally I'd pick some rampaging self-reproducing thingy (mechanical or organic), then sneak it into all the biospheres I wanted to destroy. My point here is that no particular physical effect -- with its pluses, minuses, and trade-offs -- is likely to dominate the thinking of the galaxy.
  4. So what might really aged civilizations do? Disperse, of course, and also not attack new arrivals in the galaxy, for fear that they might not get them all. Why? Because revenge is probably selected for in surviving species, and anybody truly looking out for long-term interests will not want to leave a youthful species with a grudge, sneaking around behind its back...
I agree with most parts of points 2, 3, and 4. As for point 1, it is cheaper than you think. You mention self-replicating machines in point 3, and while it is true that relativistic rockets require planetary power supplies, it is also true that we can power the whole Earth with a field of solar cells adding up to barely more than 200-by-200 kilometers, drawn out into a narrow band around the Moon's equator. Self-replicating robots could accomplish this task with only the cost of developing the first twenty or thirty machines. And once we're powering the Earth practically free of charge, why not let the robots keep building panels on the Lunar far side? Add a few self-replicating linear accelerator-building factories, and plug the accelerators into the panels, and you could produce enough anti-hydrogen to launch a starship every year. But why stop at the Moon? Have you looked at Mercury lately? ...

Dr. Wells has obviously bought into the view of a friendly galaxy. This view is based upon the argument that unless we humans conquer our self-destructive warlike tendencies, we will wipe out our species and no longer be a threat to extrasolar civilizations. All well and good up to this point.

But then these optimists make the jump: If we are wise enough to survive and not wipe ourselves out, we will be peaceful -- so peaceful that we will not wipe anybody else out, and as we are below on Earth, so other people will be above.

This is a non sequitur, because there is no guarantee that one follows the other, and for a very important reason:"They" are not part of our species.

Before we proceed any further, try the following thought experiment: watch the films Platoon and Aliens together and ask yourself if the plot lines don't quickly blur and become indistinguishable. You'll recall that in Vietnam, American troops were taught to regard the enemy as "Charlie" or "Gook," dehumanizing words that made "them" easier to kill. In like manner, the British, Spanish, and French conquests of the discovery period were made easier by declaring dark- or red- or yellow-skinned people as something less than human, as a godless, faceless "them," as literally another species.

Presumably there is some sort of inhibition against killing another member of our own species, because we have to work to overcome it...

But the rules do not apply to other species. Both humans and wolves lack inhibitions against killing chickens.

Humans kill other species all the time, even those with which we share the common bond of high intelligence. As you read this, hundreds of dolphins are being killed by tuna fishermen and drift netters. The killing goes on and on, and dolphins are not even a threat to us.

As near as we can tell, there is no inhibition against killing another species simply because it displays a high intelligence. So, as much as we love him, Carl Sagan's theory that if a species makes it to the top and does not blow itself apart, then it will be nice to other intelligent species is probably wrong. Once you admit interstellar species will not necessarily be nice to one another simply by virtue of having survived, then you open up this whole nightmare of relativistic civilizations exterminating one another.

It's an entirely new situation, emerging from the physical possibilities that will face any species that can overcome the natural interstellar quarantine of its solar system. The choices seem unforgiving, and the mind struggles to imagine circumstances under which an interstellar species might make contact without triggering the realization that it can't afford to be proven wrong in its fears.

Got that? We can't afford to wait to be proven wrong.

They won't come to get our resources or our knowledge or our women or even because they're just mean and want power over us. They'll come to destroy us to insure their survival, even if we're no apparent threat, because species death is just too much to risk, however remote the risk...

The most humbling feature of the relativistic bomb is that even if you happen to see it coming, its exact motion and position can never be determined; and given a technology even a hundred orders of magnitude above our own, you cannot hope to intercept one of these weapons. It often happens, in these discussions, that an expression from the old west arises: "God made some men bigger and stronger than others, but Mr. Colt made all men equal." Variations on Mr. Colt's weapon are still popular today, even in a society that possesses hydrogen bombs. Similarly, no matter how advanced civilizations grow, the relativistic bomb is not likely to go away...

We ask that you try just one more thought experiment. Imagine yourself taking a stroll through Manhattan, somewhere north of 68th street, deep inside Central Park, late at night. It would be nice to meet someone friendly, but you know that the park is dangerous at night. That's when the monsters come out. There's always a strong undercurrent of drug dealings, muggings, and occasional homicides.

It is not easy to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. They dress alike, and the weapons are concealed. The only difference is intent, and you can't read minds.

Stay in the dark long enough and you may hear an occasional distance shriek or blunder across a body.

How do you survive the night? The last thing you want to do is shout, "I'm here!" The next to last thing you want to do is reply to someone who shouts, "I'm a friend!"

What you would like to do is find a policeman, or get out of the park. But you don't want to make noise or move towards a light where you might be spotted, and it is difficult to find either a policeman or your way out without making yourself known. Your safest option is to hunker down and wait for daylight, then safely walk out.

There are, of course, a few obvious differences between Central Park and the universe.

There is no policeman.

There is no way out.

And the night never ends.
 
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Dregonoid

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The idea that there is a genetic basis to racism is rejected in academia. Xenophobia, the instinctive fear of potentially dangerous strangers, and more generally in-group out-group social behaviors, do appear to have a significant biological basis, however.

This distinction is very important. Because you need to think in global and historical terms, not just 1850's-1970's Virginia, when you are looking for specific evidence of general human behaviors. By limiting the discussion to weird starting points, you end at even weirder points.

I do need to correct myself, as I got caught in oversimplifying manners (as I always do). You are a 100% correct, there is no basis for racism in genetics, it stems from fear of "others". Others being individuals who do not belong to your own group, which at least for older days (and the less educated) means skin color can/will have an effect on xenophobia.

Thank all that is holy for people who are applying their head.
 

DàbiànLājīdàrén

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The idea that racism is genetic is pretty dumb because "races" like black, white, and Asian are just made up categories created by humans, and these concepts didn't even exist at one point in history. It might be more accurate to say that people could be naturally intolerant of those who are simply "different," but even that I am skeptical of. A lot of things are just ingrained into our psyches through cultural osmosis or taught to us during our developmental stages. I don't see "racism" as anything other than just another offshoot of a species' instinctual "in group out group" mentality.
 
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I don't think racism is legitimate, but I am suggesting what started as tribalism and evolved into racism started from fear of "the other." No one said xenophobia is legitimate, but it occurs.

Before we created a society we were just wandering bands of people and every outsider was assumed to pose a threat. We only decided to stop killing each other for our own self-preservation. I'm not excusing bigotry, but this is a legitimate conversation. There is no need to become righteously indignant in order to self-congratulate here. Race is mostly a social construct that we make too much of, but it is there. Whether a threat is real or not all it takes is perception to force people into action/reaction against it.
I don't think it's baked into people. SOME people, maybe. But I think for most, like with religion, it's simply a rationalisation and justification for their bad behaviour that they've managed to convince themselves they believe, but they actually don't. And I believe this because of people's actions, which betray their true beliefs.
 

Revan7719

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Neutrality, e.i no choice at all, would indicate no special love or hate for aliens, I think that's a rather sensible standpoint. The 5 grade scale represents both extremes and everything in between, so not very ambiguous at all imo. I also think that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to look at earth and our values today and say that people wouldn't appreciate an alien migration wave (and I agree, we probably wouldn't), because our context will be entirely different from the human society we'll find in Stellaris.
They are technologically immensely ahead of us, they supposedly live in a united world (depends on your RP a bit), but most importantly they will know other aliens through intergalactic politics which kinda will make people not freak out so much if they see aliens, because they've read about it or maybe even personally encountered alien life before. But really, this is just a bunch of hypotheticals. Humanity could go United Federation of Planets or full Imperium of Man.

Come to think of it, District 9 touches this topic quite a bit.
I really think of the 2, imperium of man would be closer to what we would be. True, in a couple hundred years maybe we would get over some of this hatred. But look what has gone on in the last 100 years here. 2 world wars. Numerous smaller wars. Terrorism. religious conflict, and not all with Muslims. Racism. Ethnic hate. genocide and attempted genocide. Hell just look at the cities. The vast differences in just a few miles as you go from normalcy to the ghettos. The massive cultural differences. Maybe the appearance of aliens would unite us. But those basic traits that has plagued manking for 1000's of years would rear it's head against what is really different from us. Purge the heretics indeed :)
 
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Revan7719

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I don't think it's baked into people. SOME people, maybe. But I think for most, like with religion, it's simply a rationalisation and justification for their bad behaviour that they've managed to convince themselves they believe, but they actually don't. And I believe this because of people's actions, which betray their true beliefs.
Well, a lot of it is where we are born and raised. How different would each of us be if we were raised as muslims? As buddhists or hindu's. A different sect of christianity? All of our viewpoints would change. I do think you are right that people use these things as excuses too. Most definitely.
 
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Eldorian

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The logic being that it is only strangers that evolution conditioned you not to like because it's strangers that tended to kill you and take your land? And this gets turned into racism because most people grow up around people the same colour than them, making people that are a different colour strangers by proxy?

Huh. So that's why the government shills endlessly for diverse neighborhoods. I never thought of it that way. If true, it actually kind of makes sense.
It's a shame that I had to learn this in an off-topic discussion on a sci-fi videogame forum, rather than someone from the government actually articulating a half-reasonable argument about childhood socialisation.

Pissing about online: 1, Formal education: 0

In which case maybe you do hate mushroom men 'cos they're strange.
But then again I'm xenophilic for Japanese chicks and I didn't grow up around any, so CONTRARY EVIDENCE RIGHT THERE.

The funny bit is, this is formalized in the raising of dogs. When you socialize puppies you introduce them to various people and dogs in friendly situations so they don't develop phobias. Dogs are also innately afraid of the out group, and have been known to be racist and, I guess you'd call it breedist, vs people and dogs they've had bad/no relationships with. My mother has a dog, for example, which is afraid of big, black dogs, like poodles or newfies. My own dog is not fond of chocolate labs or German shepard dogs, due to bad experiences at the dog park when he was being socialized.

Yet I doubt many parenting books tell you to take your toddler to meet some black people so they won't be racist.
 
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aitaituo

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The funny bit is, this is formalized in the raising of dogs. When you socialize puppies you introduce them to various people and dogs in friendly situations so they don't develop phobias. Dogs are also innately afraid of the out group, and have been known to be racist and, I guess you'd call it breedist, vs people and dogs they've had bad/no relationships with. My mother has a dog, for example, which is afraid of big, black dogs, like poodles or newfies. My own dog is not fond of chocolate labs or German shepard dogs, due to bad experiences at the dog park when he was being socialized.

Yet I doubt many parenting books tell you to take your toddler to meet some black people so they won't be racist.

Few parenting books advocate raising children like dogs. For some reason.
 
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Rory1237

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I could see us being cautious if they were of equal or greater strength to us, preferring diplomacy and hiding our disgust. But ours is a species with ideas of domination and superiority ingrained into almost all cultures. As soon as we were able we would likely subjugate those who are not of our species, and why shouldn't we? They would likely not be like us, not think as we do, they could be as beasts of burden in our colonies while their planets fuel the wealth of Earth.


Or so I dream of our future...
 
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Eldorian

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If we're talking about where humanity is at on the ethos tables, I'd say our instincts lend us to xenophobe, spiritualist, militarist, we're currently (Global average, here) xenophobe, spiritualist, and individualist, and we're in the process of losing spiritualist for pacifist.