Xenophile Ambiguity

[TheBeautifulVoid2]

So I guess my point is that the above thought process with regards to mushroom men from outer space falls over at (1), because no mushroom man ever tried to kill your great-great-great^1,000-grandfather, so your under-the-hood reptilian brain isn't sending you subconscious signals to distrust the friendly 'shroom who's offering you space candy.

I am not an academic in this field, but it is my understanding that racism has less to do with ancestral attempts at violence and more to do with a feeling that we are not getting the dominance that we feel we deserve. White people, including myself, grow up in a world in which we are taught that we will receive the submission of people who are arbitrarily classified into other "races." When we see that this is not the case, we experience feelings of threat, which we often interpret as fear, often express as hostility and often rationalise into a dislike of superficial differences.

Or, put another way, no mushroom better give me lip. His place is to be delicious seared in butter and then left to simmer in red wine for a little while until he's absorbed the flavour. /s

 

[Trithemius]

The idea that there is a genetic basis to racism is rejected in academia. Xenophobia, the instinctive fear of potentially dangerous strangers, and more generally in-group out-group social behaviors, do appear to have a significant biological basis, however.

This distinction is very important. Because you need to think in global and historical terms, not just 1850's-1970's Virginia, when you are looking for specific evidence of general human behaviors. By limiting the discussion to weird starting points, you end at even weirder points.

This is a better version of the post I was mentally rehearsing as I was reading this thread.

Genetic arguments are much less important than social (and economic...) reasons for stigmatisation.

 

[Oscot]

The idea that there is a genetic basis to racism is rejected in academia. Xenophobia, the instinctive fear of potentially dangerous strangers, and more generally in-group out-group social behaviors, do appear to have a significant biological basis, however.

The logic being that it is only strangers that evolution conditioned you not to like because it's strangers that tended to kill you and take your land? And this gets turned into racism because most people grow up around people the same colour than them, making people that are a different colour strangers by proxy?

Huh. So that's why the government shills endlessly for diverse neighborhoods. I never thought of it that way. If true, it actually kind of makes sense.
It's a shame that I had to learn this in an off-topic discussion on a sci-fi videogame forum, rather than someone from the government actually articulating a half-reasonable argument about childhood socialisation.

Pissing about online: 1, Formal education: 0

In which case maybe you do hate mushroom men 'cos they're strange.
But then again I'm xenophilic for Japanese chicks and I didn't grow up around any, so CONTRARY EVIDENCE RIGHT THERE.

 

[Elderotter]

No one feels racist towards a hippopotomus because while they might be a danger to man, they aren't a danger to mankind. I think our initial response to any being with intelligence will be fear. If we discover a species of beings outside of earth that is like us in intelligence but different in any other way we will nuke up.

So we would be Xenophobes in essence then. Racism is in fact a form of Xenophobia. They are different from us, different color skin, different language(Why can't they speak(insert language) like a normal person. Religious bigorty would also apply.. what do you mean the intelligent Fungi doesn't accept the same God as me? I think the answer would be closer to that supplied above.. where we would trade with them (to our advantage) and perhaps go to war with them as soon as we are capable. We won't know until/unless we actually meet an Alien race, but I fear we would be just as tolerant to them as we are to our fellow Humans who are different, be in race, creed, sexual identity(how would we act towards races with 3 or more sexes? Or even just 1, Fungi might be Asexual. Just speculation, but our better Nature isn't always what we present to those who are different. My opinion.

 

[Knotz]

I'm pretty sure that if we ever met an alien species the response would not be universal acceptance just cuz it's extra super different. We're not racist towards hippos cuz we fundamentally classify it as different and lower than ourselves. A space faring alien species? That'd either be on par or above us. Othering them would be a whole lot easier considering they would be the first thing that is fundamentally other and equal to us. And then there's the clashing cultures and values to consider or even if we'd recognize anything they did or were as being akin to those things and vice versa. I think we'd be talking major and long lasting prejudices, at least until such a time as we'd be inured to the concept of fundamentally alien aliens.

On the plus side I'm pretty sure the tiny differences separating humanity would start seeming petty and trivial in comparison.

 

[Yenzen]

I am not an academic in this field, but it is my understanding that racism has less to do with ancestral attempts at violence and more to do with a feeling that we are not getting the dominance that we feel we deserve. White people, including myself, grow up in a world in which we are taught that we will receive the submission of people who are arbitrarily classified into other "races." When we see that this is not the case, we experience feelings of threat, which we often interpret as fear, often express as hostility and often rationalise into a dislike of superficial differences.

So racism is some sort of white people invention...?

Sounds racist.

It's pretty much a global phenomenon. Many in Thailand towards Muslim groups, many migrant populations in the western world against Jews, between many migrant populations too (often based more on religion).

Just because we talk more about it in our media doesn't mean the rest of the world don't have their little local bigoted ideas about people from elsewhere that look different.

 

[Reno Lam]

So racism is some sort of white people invention...?

Sounds racist.

It's pretty much a global phenomenon. Many in Thailand towards Muslim groups, many migrant populations in the western world against Jews, between many migrant populations too (often based more on religion).

Just because we talk more about it in our media doesn't mean the rest of the world don't have their little local bigoted ideas about people from elsewhere that look different.

Though basing such discrimination on how much melanin instead of to which entity one pray is probably more pronounced in what we traditionally define as "the West", which is often inhabited mostly by people with a pale complexion.

Xenophobia and discrimination is pretty much a global behaviour, something that almost all human shares on a fundamental level (even if it is a part that many probably would prefer not to have). However, different people in different time tend to try justifying their xenophobia on different things depending on the circumstances, ranging from religion, language, cultural practices and, of course, skin colour.

Despite it most likely being part of our nature, personally I am quite optimistic that humanity as a whole will be able to gradually reduce or suppress it as our society continue to develop. Essentially, technology and the societal change it induces have been widening our perception of "us". We have endured from "us" being our immediate relative to our tribe, to our patch of land to millions of strangers that happen to share a language and culture (or so they claim). With the world becoming more interconnected, I hope that eventually we will be able to enlarge the circle even further.

 

[aitaituo]

I am not an academic in this field, but it is my understanding that racism has less to do with ancestral attempts at violence and more to do with a feeling that we are not getting the dominance that we feel we deserve. White people, including myself, grow up in a world in which we are taught that we will receive the submission of people who are arbitrarily classified into other "races." When we see that this is not the case, we experience feelings of threat, which we often interpret as fear, often express as hostility and often rationalise into a dislike of superficial differences.

Or, put another way, no mushroom better give me lip. His place is to be delicious seared in butter and then left to simmer in red wine for a little while until he's absorbed the flavour. /s

The logic being that it is only strangers that evolution conditioned you not to like because it's strangers that tended to kill you and take your land? And this gets turned into racism because most people grow up around people the same colour than them, making people that are a different colour strangers by proxy?

What? No. You guys might enjoy some further reading on the history of race and racism or maybe some stuff on the treatment of foreigners in various historical legal codes. But I'm going to bed.

 

[Oscot]

What? No.

No?
Well I guess it was sort of wishful thinking on my part that the government could ever have a good reason for doing anything.
Anarchism re-validated?

You guys might enjoy some further reading on the history of race and racism or maybe some stuff on the treatment of foreigners in various historical legal codes.

Reading a bunch of sob stories about how all my ancestors were monsters doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy.
I think I'll just go play EUIV and revel in it some more.

 

[NoGodsNoMasters]

Fear of the other trumps all until we learn otherwise because of society. Fear of the other- who is alien and has greater technology would probably trump anything at first. The planet would simultaneously shit itself especially if we weren't prepared for it.

If anyone came today there would be panic. If anyone came after we detected signs of life or technology light years away, there would be less of a panic. Slightly.

 

[Puking Panda]

White people, including myself, grow up in a world in which we are taught that we will receive the submission of people who are arbitrarily classified into other "races." When we see that this is not the case, we experience feelings of threat, which we often interpret as fear, often express as hostility and often rationalise into a dislike of superficial differences.

Not sure where you live but I don't think they teach straight up white supremacy in any country anymore. Modern day "xenophobes" are probably more worried that people from other races that are culturally incompatible with their own are taking over society through immigration, which is, in my opinion, a valid concern.

 

[Caewil]

What? No. You guys might enjoy some further reading on the history of race and racism or maybe some stuff on the treatment of foreigners in various historical legal codes. But I'm going to bed.

That's xenophobia, an instinctive reaction against foreigners and out-groups. Racism is xenophobia + an intellectual justification involving inherent biological/genetic differences, as well as a specific hierarchy and grading of races along a scale. The fact that the ancient Romans were afraid that their children would imbibe foreign-ness from drinking the milk of their barbarian wet-Nurses is a different thing to racism. The origin of racial theories can be traced back to the conquest of the new world and the slave trade - the Pope opposed slavery and slaughtering the natives (he wanted them to convert), so the Spanish, Portuguese and others had to invent theories involving the natives and blacks not being fully human to justify their exploitation. Then Darwin happened and white people got to pretend the whole thing was scientific.

As for our reaction to aliens? That would probably depend more on the nature of first contact than on any inherent tendency toward xenophobia. That said, should we meet aliens IRL both of our species rare likely to be some form of Post-human/cyborg by that point, so talking about what humans innately are is probably pointless since we wouldn't be humans any longer.

 

[Oscot]

Not sure where you live but I don't think they teach straight up white supremacy in any country anymore. Modern day "xenophobes" are probably more worried that people from other races that are culturally incompatible with their own are taking over society through immigration, which is, in my opinion, a valid concern.

He means that Original Sin white privilege is still ingrained in the souls of all mankind honkies, and only through penance by flagellation frequent checking and praising the Savior Our Lord Jesus Christ MLK can we ever be free of the machinations of the Devil patriarchy.

Sorry, I thought it was 1672 for a second there.

 

[Yenzen]

That's xenophobia, an instinctive reaction against foreigners and out-groups. Racism is xenophobia + an intellectual justification involving inherent biological/genetic differences, as well as a specific hierarchy and grading of races along a scale. The fact that the ancient Romans were afraid that their children would imbibe foreign-ness from drinking the milk of their barbarian wet-Nurses is a different thing to racism. The origin of racial theories can be traced back to the conquest of the new world and the slave trade - the Pope opposed slavery and slaughtering the natives (he wanted them to convert), so the Spanish, Portuguese and others had to invent theories involving the natives and blacks not being fully human to justify their exploitation. Then Darwin happened and white people got to pretend the whole thing was scientific.

As for our reaction to aliens? That would probably depend more on the nature of first contact than on any inherent tendency toward xenophobia. That said, should we meet aliens IRL both of our species rare likely to be some form of Post-human/cyborg by that point, so talking about what humans innately are is probably pointless since we wouldn't be humans any longer.

Seems like an redefinition of a term which simply means "thinks less of others for the sole reason of belonging to a specific race"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism

Science doesn't really factor into it. One could care less about science or Darwin and still be a raging racist.

 

[Castorem]

Speak for yourself. Hippopotomi are disgusting creatures unfit for anything. And grossly misnamed, which fan the flames of my hatred forever. They are not water horses of any description, not kelpies, sirens, seaponies or anything like them at all. They're gross and disgusting blob creatures that are a mockery of sensible sea-based equines and everything cute.

They can all die in a blaze of the unrestrained use of excessive explosions.
Shoo-be-doo.

 

[Person012345]

No one feels racist towards a hippopotomus because while they might be a danger to man, they aren't a danger to mankind.

Nor are black people. This is not a good point.

Let's get this clear, racists aren't racists because they legitimately think other races are worse in any tangible way, they're racist because they need to justify their own hatred and have thus convinced themselves that they believe one race is worse. But people's ACTUAL beliefs are displayed through their actions.

 

[NoGodsNoMasters]

Nor are black people. This is not a good point.

Let's get this clear, racists aren't racists because they legitimately think other races are worse in any tangible way, they're racist because they need to justify their own hatred and have thus convinced themselves that they believe one race is worse. But people's ACTUAL beliefs are displayed through their actions.

I don't think racism is legitimate, but I am suggesting what started as tribalism and evolved into racism started from fear of "the other." No one said xenophobia is legitimate, but it occurs.

Before we created a society we were just wandering bands of people and every outsider was assumed to pose a threat. We only decided to stop killing each other for our own self-preservation. I'm not excusing bigotry, but this is a legitimate conversation. There is no need to become righteously indignant in order to self-congratulate here. Race is mostly a social construct that we make too much of, but it is there. Whether a threat is real or not all it takes is perception to force people into action/reaction against it.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I'm actually curious how relevant earthly racism would be to this topic, because I could easily imagine people who are xenophilic to completely different species but would still despise other members of their own species due to skin colour or ethnicity. I mean, it is relevant, but there is that flip side of the coin that exists that is probably more terrifying.

 

[Surimi]

So racism is some sort of white people invention...?

Well, yes.

This isn't even controversial. Racism, the idea that people belong to one of several different "racial" groups, started to diverge from the general background of religious prejudice and xenophobia in Europe in the early modern period, and ultimately took on its modern "scientific" form towards the end of the 18th century.

Before then, there were all kinds of reasons for people to hate each other, but none of them hinged on the notion that people are divisible into hierarchically ranked "racial" groups marked by similar ancestry and physical features. The closest we get is climatic determinism, which is a theory originating in classical Greece (and popular in medieval southern Europe and the Arabic-speaking world) that people who are born in cold climates were naturally docile and made good slaves because they don't have the vital heat of people from hot climates.

Don't make the mistake, however, of thinking that any instance of humans being mean to each other is racism. Racism was a specific intellectual tradition and deserves to be treated as such, if nothing else due to how singularly important it has ended up being to the world we now live in.

Today it may be the case that most racists are just assholes, but don't make the mistake of thinking noone ever "really" believed in the concept of race. They totally did. It was much, much more than just an excuse to be douchebags.

 

[aitaituo]

Seems like an redefinition of a term which simply means "thinks less of others for the sole reason of belonging to a specific race"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/racism

Science doesn't really factor into it. One could care less about science or Darwin and still be a raging racist.

Those definitions presuppose race, which is perfectly fine in a dictionary.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/race

Not that the appeal to authority here is necessarily persuasive. Whatever dictionary Google pulls from gives this definition of racism:

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

We can also point to any number of academic authorities, who have taken it upon themselves to attempt to define race beyond semantics. Here is a convenient quote I pulled from Wikipedia:

Racism rests on two basic assumptions: that a correlation exists between physical characteristics and moral qualities; that mankind is divisible into superior and inferior stocks. Racism, thus defined, is a modern conception, for prior to the XVIth century there was virtually nothing in the life and thought of the West that can be described as racist. To prevent misunderstanding a clear distinction must be made between racism and ethnocentrism ... The Ancient Hebrews, in referring to all who were not Hebrews as Gentiles, were indulging in ethnocentrism, not in racism. ... So it was with the Hellenes who denominated all non-Hellenes——whether the wild Scythians or the Egyptians whom they acknowledged as their mentors in the arts if civilization——Barbarians, the term denoting that which was strange or foreign.

Well, yes.

This isn't even controversial. Racism, the idea that people belong to one of several different "racial" groups, started to diverge from the general background of religious prejudice and xenophobia in Europe in the early modern period, and ultimately took on its modern "scientific" form towards the end of the 18th century.

Before then, there were all kinds of reasons for people to hate each other, but none of them hinged on the notion that people are divisible into hierarchically ranked "racial" groups marked by similar ancestry and physical features. The closest we get is climatic determinism, which is a theory originating in classical Greece (and popular in medieval southern Europe and the Arabic-speaking world) that people who are born in cold climates were naturally docile and made good slaves because they don't have the vital heat of people from hot climates.

Don't make the mistake, however, of thinking that any instance of humans being mean to each other is racism. Racism was a specific intellectual tradition and deserves to be treated as such, if nothing else due to how singularly important it has ended up being to the world we now live in.

Today it may be the case that most racists are just assholes, but don't make the mistake of thinking noone ever "really" believed in the concept of race. They totally did. It was much, much more than just an excuse to be douchebags.

I am glad to see someone who knows their history. But to quibble, racism was invented by Muslims, up to and including the belief that black people are naturally good dancers.