WWW: The German player does not use artillery

[griffor]

why are we arguing over something paradox said is broken and they were fixing it i could understand this thread after the game was released, but come on we are arguing over alpha balance when paradox has stated that they balance the game in beta.

 

[OBRkenobi]

why are we arguing over something paradox said is broken and they were fixing it i could understand this thread after the game was released, but come on we are arguing over alpha balance when paradox has stated that they balance the game in beta.

Exactly what I my OP and other posts before mine said.

 

[OBRkenobi]

Unfortunately we all just got carried away after that.

 

[Axe99]

Unfortunately we all just got carried away after that.

Aye, just a little . It is a quiet week on the forums, and artillery is a very on-topic thing to discuss in HoI at least .

 

[Georilla]

Good that it will be fixed. Artillery has always been crucial ever since it was invented and used, and its role only got bigger through history, especially in WW2.

 

[Otto of england]

I think the problem isn't that artillery is too weak per say, but that divisions suffer too much infantry equipment attrition. Currently Germany has easily 40-50% of his production in infantry equipment and his surplus is only large enough to que a few divisons into the build que every now and then.

If this is true his decisions to strip artiolery is completely logical when he was invading Russia in the winter and the continued lack of existence is logical as he can't afford to put enough factories onto it to keep A) building more units to strength his fronts and B) To keep existing units fully out fitted.

 

[KalZakath]

I think the problem isn't that artillery is too weak per say, but that divisions suffer too much infantry equipment attrition. Currently Germany has easily 40-50% of his production in infantry equipment and his surplus is only large enough to que a few divisons into the build que every now and then.

If this is true his decisions to strip artiolery is completely logical when he was invading Russia in the winter and the continued lack of existence is logical as he can't afford to put enough factories onto it to keep A) building more units to strength his fronts and B) To keep existing units fully out fitted.

Remember too that they're fighting the 'Gearing up' issue. Seems as though every time the development build changes, they lose all of their gearing for the next week, so that's leading to a lot less infantry equipment being produced than would normally be. Several times, Daniel has cursed the gearing, and in the timespan of the hour that they play, I'm not sure if it ever recovers to full gearing even though the factories have been producing nothing but that since the beginning of the game.

 

[Daelyn75]

Remember too that they're fighting the 'Gearing up' issue. Seems as though every time the development build changes, they lose all of their gearing for the next week, so that's leading to a lot less infantry equipment being produced than would normally be. Several times, Daniel has cursed the gearing, and in the timespan of the hour that they play, I'm not sure if it ever recovers to full gearing even though the factories have been producing nothing but that since the beginning of the game.

1.7% increase per week is slow going to gear up to 125% efficiency. 73.52 game weeks. Or was it 1.7% per day? Per day isn't that bad, but if it was per week, then that is brutally painful.

 

[adam_grif]

1.7% increase per week is slow going to gear up to 125% efficiency. 73.52 game weeks. Or was it 1.7% per day? Per day isn't that bad, but if it was per week, then that is brutally painful.

Per week sounds a lot more realistic. 1.7% per day would mean Like 2.2 months to gear up to max efficiency, insanely fast. You won't lose the full efficiency if you're switching from one kind of tank to another, and even less if it's just a variation on the same chassis, so upgrades and such will be much less brutal.

 

[kalauer]

why are we arguing over something paradox said is broken and they were fixing it i could understand this thread after the game was released, but come on we are arguing over alpha balance when paradox has stated that they balance the game in beta.

I guess because someone said that what we saw was intended and should stay this way (to put it short). But I believe we all agree now that in the case we saw in the WWW (fighting against mostly infantry on russian plains and tundra, stripping away the artillery should have been a bad decision, but was not due to the most likely yet unbalanced effects of soft attack vs. org-loss.

As I read it, the whole point of most of the discussion was that people stated that infantry divisions without artillery support should be inferior to those with it. I would agree to that ingeneral, saving some special circumstances. Some doubted that.

 

[Fremor]

As a student of these subjects IRL, there is a sort of diminishing returns when it comes to the different troop classes. Sure, you could have 6 000 000 bayonettes and not a single cannon but that wont get you far. Clausewitz wrote that you should get as much artillery as practically possible without it becoming a major disadvantage for you, because the artillary is dependent on the wealth of the nation and brings most destructivie power while infantry is dependent on the manpower of the nation while being more squishy.

It makes no sense to ignore arty, and 'diverse builds' does not make sense at all. You need infantry to make sure you can push forward and protect the artillary, artillary to rain down hell and cav (or motorised, whatever) to move quick where needed. Tanks would kind of be like armored cavalry, breaking the lines and moving quickly. Armored cavalry was in the middle ages the deciding troop, but was really hard to actually get hold of. The infantry was just there as a sort of emergency solution back then.

 

[kalauer]

As a student of these subjects IRL, there is a sort of diminishing returns when it comes to the different troop classes. Sure, you could have 6 000 000 bayonettes and not a single cannon but that wont get you far. Clausewitz wrote that you should get as much artillery as practically possible without it becoming a major disadvantage for you, because the artillary is dependent on the wealth of the nation and brings most destructivie power while infantry is dependent on the manpower of the nation while being more squishy.

It makes no sense to ignore arty, and 'diverse builds' does not make sense at all. You need infantry to make sure you can push forward and protect the artillary, artillary to rain down hell and cav (or motorised, whatever) to move quick where needed. Tanks would kind of be like armored cavalry, breaking the lines and moving quickly. Armored cavalry was in the middle ages the deciding troop, but was really hard to actually get hold of. The infantry was just there as a sort of emergency solution back then.

I believe Clausewitz was under the strong impression of Napoleons victories, hence the emphasis on artillery, but please, lets not go too far on this. I would not call myself a specialist in this.

But where can one study theses subjects today? Is there a profession related to it? Historian maybe; or is it a course at some kind of military university?

 

[Kovax]

The problem, as I see it, is not just that artillery is underpowered; that is a balance adjustment issue. The problem I'm worried about is that it appears to be a symptom of a larger issue with resources and production, where some countries will be sharply limited by certain resources, and simply can't produce enough of the equipment which they did historically. If GER can't produce artillery except at half-speed (which makes it far more practical to produce something else), the SU can't effectively produce tanks for some odd reason, or Japan finds itself unable to build aircraft, then the game is ahistorically set up, and we can expect unrealistic outcomes, no matter how they try to balance it, other than putting the whole thing on rails via scripting (again).

 

[kalauer]

Well, I guess resource availability will be subject to balancing too?

 

[Antiboyscout]

The problem I'm worried about is that it appears to be a symptom of a larger issue with resources and production, where some countries will be sharply limited by certain resources, and simply can't produce enough of the equipment which they did historically.

Didn't Spain join the Axis in WWW? That should mean Germany has access to Spanish Tungsten. Historically they had to trade for it, but it was considered worth the cost to enable the production of artillery and anything else that required tungsten.

 

[Invader_Canuck]

If you feel that way, then build an army based on arty. Nobody says you shouldn't, it will be a strong choice according to Johan and Daniel.

Diversity is always a good thing in a video game.

Totes, full cavalry divisions should be totally viable and equal to regular infantry divisions too.

You know, because plausible reality be damned, diversity is more important for gameplay.

 

[Zaku]

Totes, full cavalry divisions should be totally viable and equal to regular infantry divisions too.

You know, because plausible reality be damned, diversity is more important for gameplay.

Well it is more important to me, but why does this hurt you so much? The game lets you build the historically correct divisions, so you can play your way.

BTW don't misunderstand me. I never said that they should be equal, read my posts again.

 

[griffor]

Didn't Spain join the Axis in WWW? That should mean Germany has access to Spanish Tungsten. Historically they had to trade for it, but it was considered worth the cost to enable the production of artillery and anything else that required tungsten.

technically i don't think they did as Hitler feared invasion of Spain from UK and USA, but Franco did send volunteers and traded i think main problem is they never pause and they play on speed 2 during war so it doesn't give you time to trade upgrade units etc with the amount of micro the German player is using atm.

 

[Fremor]

diversity is more important for gameplay.

No.

 

[Jonas]

Arty will be rebalanced, so it will be viable.
However, it won't be as overpowered as it was historically was.

It will not be as overpowered as it historically was? We certainly do have very different views on logic. Reality is overpowered and therefore reality has to be nerfed in this game? Ehrm, I disagree!