WWW: The German player does not use artillery

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OBRkenobi

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Just because he wants to avoid no brainer decisions doesn't mean we should expect that no fire support is needed at all. If not arty then it should be rocket arty or a lot of CAS. Otherwise you've just invalidated combined arms for the sake if 'balance'. At the very least the lack of fire support should be bleeding Germany white in terms of losses.
Exactly. If you don't have enough artillery (fire support) in your army then you shouldn't be able to expect to be very successful or otherwise suffer many losses. Balancing is the issue here and I'm sure the devs will clear it up like paranoidsteve said.
 
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Small calibre arty and mortars are abstracted in infantry equipment.

But that aside, I still don't get your point. This is a game, and as such it should be balanced. You can't have an OP support brigade, because then nobody would use the rest. The game design revolves around the idea that you should make sacrifices, because you can't have everything.
Do you build divisions with less infantry battalions, but lots of heavy firepower?
Do you build them focusing on mobility? Then you add a recon company or maybe an engineer company.
Do you build lots of CAS and skip arty?
Game should include several diverse builds, and I don't think heavy arty should be the only obvious choice.
Artillery (fire support) was essential in WW2 and it should be heavily emphasised in HOI4. Even if you don't include it in all of your divisions, not having any should be a very bad choice which will cost you dearly.
 
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Artillery (fire support) was essential in WW2 and it should be heavily emphasised in HOI4. Even if you don't include it in all of your divisions not having any at all should be a very bad choice which will cost you dearly.

As I said several times, if you feel it that way then build them, because it will be a strong support choice.
It shouldn't(and won't) be the only good choice though.

Seriously, I feel like you guys don't even read my posts.
 
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As I said several times, if you feel it that way then build them, because it will be a strong support choice.
It shouldn't(and won't) be the only good choice though.

Seriously, I feel like you guys don't even read my posts.
Sure its a "strong choice" which obviously I agree with, and of course its not the only strong choice. But neglecting to build artillery brigades/battalions should also be a bad choice because of its vital role in every army of that time. Which is what we're trying to stress to you.
 
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Johan once said that we will not have "no brainer" choices in the game. Arty is strong, but it's not the only way to win the game.

To take Antediluvian's approach (which I support) up a couple of notches, maybe we should balance the game so that I can win without building any ground forces at all? After all, it shouldn't be a "no brainer" to build an army - as the UK, I want to be able to win with just a navy and air force. Does that make it clearer?

Small calibre arty and mortars are abstracted in infantry equipment.

But that aside, I still don't get your point. This is a game, and as such it should be balanced. You can't have an OP support brigade, because then nobody would use the rest.

You use "balanced" as if it's some kind of absolute, defensible position. The thing is, it isn't. Using the example I provided above, if we balance the game to allow a UK player to win with just a navy and air force, then something else is "out of balance". Generally speaking, the best "balance" in a historically-based game is one that supports historically plausible behaviour.

As for the "no brainer", arty isn't a binary "yes/no" choice. Rather, players have to balance the supply and production cost for arty with everything else they're building - making it very much a complex choice. We shouldn't think of arty as "yes/no", but rather 'how much" - and that goes from "no brainer" to "complex, thoughtful decision" very quickly.
 
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But neglecting to build artillery brigades/battalions should also be a BAD choice because of its vital role in EVERY army of that time.

Here comes the part about the gameplay is more important then historical accuracy.
Maybe not to you, but it is to me
That's why it's a good thing that arty is optional.
You can build an army having strong arty.
I can neglect it and experiment with other builds.

What's wrong in giving the players the choice between the two?
 
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Here comes the part about the gameplay is more important then historical accuracy.
Maybe not to you, but it is to me
That's why it's a good thing that arty is optional.
You can build an army having strong arty.
I can neglect it and experiment with other builds.

What's wrong in giving the players the choice between the two?
Because its not historically plausible to be allowed to neglect artillery (without negative consequences). Which is what Hearts of Iron is about.
 
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Small calibre arty and mortars are abstracted in infantry equipment.

I'm not fine with that. I can get 81mm mortars and at least some of the infantry guns, particularly the Japanese battalion guns. If infantry battalions are supposed to represent slice of divisional and regimental artillery, even just pack guns or even heavy mortars (the latter actually had towed weight around a ton, and were in instances operated specifically by the artillery arm), I'd prefer them to draw 4-6 artillery pieces each. If they can't they should suffer accordingly. There is a specific equipment type for artillery afterall, why use infantry equipment?
 
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To take Antediluvian's approach (which I support) up a couple of notches, maybe we should balance the game so that I can win without building any ground forces at all? After all, it shouldn't be a "no brainer" to build an army - as the UK, I want to be able to win with just a navy and air force. Does that make it clearer?



You use "balanced" as if it's some kind of absolute, defensible position. The thing is, it isn't. Using the example I provided above, if we balance the game to allow a UK player to win with just a navy and air force, then something else is "out of balance". Generally speaking, the best "balance" in a historically-based game is one that supports historically plausible behaviour.

As for the "no brainer", arty isn't a binary "yes/no" choice. Rather, players have to balance the supply and production cost for arty with everything else they're building - making it very much a complex choice. We shouldn't think of arty as "yes/no", but rather 'how much" - and that goes from "no brainer" to "complex, thoughtful decision" very quickly.

So how does that contradict my point about having the choice?
I never said that I won't build arty, but as I said I would like to have the choice about building/not building them.
The game should not force historical builds on you, but it should give an option for it if the player desires to do so.
 
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I'm not fine with that. I can get 81mm mortars and at least some of the infantry guns, particularly the Japanese battalion guns. If infantry battalions are supposed to represent slice of divisional and regimental artillery, even just pack guns or even heavy mortars (the latter actually had towed weight around a ton, and were in instances operated specifically by the artillery arm), I'd prefer them to draw 4-6 artillery pieces each. If they can't they should suffer accordingly. There is a specific equipment type for artillery afterall, why use infantry equipment?

Are you asking me? I didn't make that design choice, but it's still in the game.
You said you want Daniel using light arty, and I mentioned that your wish is already done. Infantry tech tree has an option to research infantry support weapons, which will improve HMGs, mortars, and smaller arty.
You may not like that design choice, but inf battalions already have fire support built in them.
 
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So how does that contradict my point about having the choice?
I never said that I won't build arty.
But as I said I would like to have the choice about building/not building them.
The game should not force historical builds on you, but it should give an option for it if the player desires to do so.
But the game is based on historical accuracy! For gods sake.
 
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No it isn't.
The game is based around an idea of the PDS design team.
Podcat even said that in their vision historical accuracy is less important then the gameplay.
Who's idea is to respect historical plausibility when they make design choices for a Hearts of Iron game.

Edit: I see you just added a line from Podcat.
 
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Who's idea is to respect historical plausibility when they make design choices for a Hearts of Iron game.

In most cases, yes. Not if it goes against game balance.
We are making a game, not a historical simulation


Also, here is what Podcat said about support companies:
that would be a balance issue then if the rest arent worth picking. My guess is you'll pick certain configurations for certain types of templates (for expensive armored templates you'll want maintenance companies etc and for veterans and elites a hospital to conserve experience loss), my gut feeling is that 5 support on your main infantry will be much too expensive as well if you need many divisions.
 
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Listen, its about striking a balance between the two. That's why instead of not being allowed to neglect artillery when building your divisions you should instead face penalties in the form of army losses when you choose to do so. Which is both historically plausible and gives the player freedom to make their own choices.

p.s I'm not talking about support companies.
 
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agentgb

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Unfortunately it's just a game, & i feel it will be exploited has such until balanced, the new mechanics with industry does not favour combined forces, the safer option is to concentrate in one area and excel at it, having mutiple factories producing artillery/tanks/support equipment etc means having to keep varies branches of your armed forces supplied with different weaponry is not a luxury all factions can aford & if so in small amounts, and if just one of those branches aren't getting adequate weapons/supplies, then the unit has a whole isn't fighting at it full potential, not to mention they will potentially be subpar compared to those whom have fully invested into one area of there army compostion.

Although i believe there is more then one way to skin a cat, and i believe although daniel was using infantry only armies for the most part allowing his factories to easily concentrate and support his huge force, that if johan had chosen his battlegrounds a bit more wisely, he would have inflicted huge casualties. I also believe johan was having problems with dan's uboats that were kiting alot, perhaps a bit to much which would lock up an entire fleet for days at a time just to slip away, and thus the supply problems could have been put down to this aswell aswell as a lack of big enough captured ports.

Artillery is better were the fronts are narrow, and more firepower can be brought to bear, dan was using the brute force of his organization to push through, which would prove decisive once you have broken through, and after that the domino's continue to fall, resulting to being chased down & exterminated. Whatever Johan did was always going to be risky, since port striking would stop any invasion from succeeding & was the reason why players in HOI3 MP games would try to capture the biggest port but also have a bunch of ports already built and ready to deploy along with airfields & transport planes droping in supplies.

I believe the lastest Dev Diary hinted that occupied territory could have less supply throughput due to partisan actions and so forth, which would make sense, but the elephant in the room is the fact that brute german banzi charges with superior infantry equipment will win the day in most battlefield situations on a wider range of terrains aside from those with narrow fronts were numbers counts for little if not supported with proper combined arms.

I still personnally believe that had Johan after the loss of sweden chosen to make a concentrated push up through italy, used malta & africa to transport in supplies via transport planes along with the sea convoys, that an invasion force could have been maintained, and aided by offshore bombardment from the british navy aswell has gaining air superiority by upgrading & securing airbases in malta, sicily, corsica, sardinia, and supporting the invasion force in south italy pushing to rome by bombing infrastructure, and italian/german divisions in the north would have resulted in the least a tit for tat if not a slow grind forward & alot of dead for the axis. In HOI3 i never relied on convoy supplies alone, but had many transport planes that would be making sure that the boys on the front could still read there mail from home. Italy was a ideal fighting ground for causing daniel problems, and if it had been followed up alot earlier in the game, daniels efforts on the eastern front may not have gone according to plan, italy is the weak link in the chain, especially an ai controlled italy, and would have resulted in a logistical headache for daniel attempting to support italy. This would have made a later invasion of sweden/norway more successful which could have been carried by the US player to share the load, slowly exhausting daniels manpower fighting two fearious fronts, that would have then allowed for the eventual invasion of normany when only the childen & oldmen were left to man daniels alantic wall.
 
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I don't really understand the prolem with this. You didn't ''need'' arty brigades in darkest hour or HOI 3. Regimental artillery guns like the ones that all well-equipped infantry divisions had at the time are part of the infantry equipment and the infantry battalions. The ''artillery'' equipment is supposed to be equipment for Artillery battalions and divisional artillery. The type of artillery you might or might not want to have in your unit if you are a major nation. I think this makes excellent sense.

If it's infantry battalions using only infantry equipment that is bothering you, I suggest you add a mod where ''Infantry Equipment'' is replaced with ''Equipment required to field Infantry units'' and ''Artillery'' with ''Equipment required to field Heavy Artillery Units''. This is not something that I think is required for most players though, and the long name might get a bit confusing.
 
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Besides the point of what Zaku is trying to argue, Daniel or Johann said somewhere in one of the dev diaries that the game is not balanced and that artillery isn't as useful as it should be.
 
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So how does that contradict my point about having the choice?
I never said that I won't build arty, but as I said I would like to have the choice about building/not building them.
The game should not force historical builds on you, but it should give an option for it if the player desires to do so.

You're changing position here - no-one is advocating forcing people to build artillery (and the game we've seen clearly allows the production of artillery-free divisions), but rather arguing that a division without artillery would be at a severe disadvantage to a division with artillery. Not unlike how a nation without an army would be at a severe disadvantage to a nation with an army. Players aren't forced into historical builds, but the level of choice is at a level of detail below the "of course you'd have arty in most line divisons" level.

It's all about the level of detail in the game - and in a game where you build individual tanks and aircraft, I'd argue the choices about artillery shouldn't be about whether it's used or not (for most divisions, not all), but rather how much (one battalion, two battalions, two regiments, etc.,).
 
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