WWW Production Observations

[Devout]

If we want to make sure it lives forever, we have to tie it into the counters debate somehow.

I'll update after each WWW. It only has to live for a couple of months. I'm betting on an end of March release date.

Additional note:
Medium SP Artillery in UK is 15 IC + 1 oil + 1 rubber + 1 steel.

looking at values, I think Germany might have an armored cost reduction vs UK. My suspicion is that UK Light tanks are 11, Germany 9. UK med tanks are 15, Germany 12.

 

[Devout]

I'm thinking that the Civilian Factory balancing in the game is out of wack. It appears that both sides are way too biased in producing more factories, that they are not using other aspects of the game. I assume this will be fixed but wanted to point it out.

It is the end of 1940 (half way through the game):
1. Germany has the same number of civilian factories (171) as Military (134+37= 171). Understandable in that he can't control new territory factors.
2. No transitioning of civilian factories to military (only building new ones in 1939). UK even has bonus to this process, but has not used it.
3 No synthetic oil factories built that would tie up civilian factories + slots
4. No radar stations built (by both sides) that would tie up civilian factories.
5. Germany runs resource shortages in early game. While understandable from a IC build return on investment, it is a role play breaker for me. Why would a country run resource shortages at peace?
6. At end of 1940, Germany cancels all of its trades (oil and chromium). Why would you cancel oil trade with Romania while invading Russia? It is a very odd move. And this would obviously create a big impact on his production. My only guess is that he still values civilian factories producing more factories over military production efficiency.

 

[dav77-b]

I'm thinking that the Civilian Factory balancing in the game is out of wack. It appears that both sides are way too biased in producing more factories, that they are not using other aspects of the game. I assume this will be fixed but wanted to point it out.

It is the end of 1940 (half way through the game):
1. Germany has the same number of civilian factories (171) as Military (134+37= 171). Understandable in that he can't control new territory factors.
2. No transitioning of civilian factories to military (only building new ones in 1939). UK even has bonus to this process, but has not used it.
3 No synthetic oil factories built that would tie up civilian factories + slots
4. No radar stations built (by both sides) that would tie up civilian factories.
5. Germany runs resource shortages in early game. While understandable from a IC build return on investment, it is a role play breaker for me. Why would a country run resource shortages at peace?
6. At end of 1940, Germany cancels all of its trades (oil and chromium). Why would you cancel oil trade with Romania while invading Russia? It is a very odd move. And this would obviously create a big impact on his production. My only guess is that he still values civilian factories producing more factories over military production efficiency.

Germany needs all its CIV IC to repair. The British Bombing campaign is a massive success in WWW. Not a single german player prepared carefully to defend strategic bombing.

 

[Devout]

Factory Start (mil/dockyard/civ)
Germany 40 10 32
UK 14 19 34
Japan 23 15 17
Italy 19 11 12

Factory information reference
1. I'm trusting a user post for Italy info
2. Note that civ numbers can be skewed by trade
3. Using the UK 39 numbers, you can see that a nation can double productivity just by using civilian factories and Focus production bonuses (which added a lot).



Factory Development (Approx dates)
Germany
start 40/10/ 32
July 39 (pre war) 91/28/99
aug 1940 - 127/37/148
Oct 1940 (post France) 134/37/188 (171 owned)

UK
start 14/19/34
Feb 39 62/19/69
May 39 (pre poland) 66/19/55 (+14 trade)
Feb 1940 (poland war) 72/22/??
Oct 1940 (post France) 80/34/??

 

[No idea]

4.5 planes (bf109) per day? With those numbers the game production is going to be far below the real one. Why havent they used real numbers for equipment?

 

[Devout]

Germany needs all its CIV IC to repair. The British Bombing campaign is a massive success in WWW. Not a single german player prepared carefully to defend strategic bombing.

I'll have to rewatch. I was under the impression Germany was still building more factories in 1940 (not so much repairing). But you bring up a good point that Germany needs to keep a good amount of civilian factories for that strategic bombing.

I think Germany also selected Strategic bombing focus over the tactical bombing focus which I thought was very odd. Could be a move to start bombing UK.

 

[Devout]

4.5 planes (bf109) per day? With those numbers the game production is going to be far below the real one. Why havent they used real numbers for equipment?

Who can say. But the production is based on number of factories. So what is the right amount of factories spent on BF109 production? That data was based on a 15 factory line. You could double the number of factories if you wanted to output more fighters. Hard to tell the right production rate without seeing all the data.

 

[No idea]

Who can say. But the production is based on number of factories. So what is the right amount of factories spent on BF109 production? That data was based on a 15 factory line. You could double the number of factories if you wanted to output more fighters. Hard to tell the right production rate without seeing all the data.

Well, around 36.000 bf 109s were built in total since the bf 109 Started being produced a bit before game start (in 1935, iirc). If 15 factories can give you 4.5 per day, that means that, to get historic production numbers, you need to use around 32 factories CONTINUOSLY since 1936 to 1945 to get historic numbers. That sounds completely out of reach, if you want to make something else apart from 109s

 

[panzerzombie]

Germany needs all its CIV IC to repair. The British Bombing campaign is a massive success in WWW. Not a single german player prepared carefully to defend strategic bombing.

I´m just joking......but the three Stooges surely and thoroughly botched the Reich

 

[panzerzombie]

Nevertheless I´m interested in the costs of LTrak and Panzer I, I couldnt find anything in the WWW because they did not mark the field "show obsolete equip".

Perhaps it would be wise to spam tons of cheap Ltraks for a lot of Panzerdivs ( crappy or nonexisting combat value, but only for training) ?

 

[Devout]

Well, around 36.000 bf 109s were built in total since the bf 109 Started being produced a bit before game start (in 1935, iirc). If 15 factories can give you 4.5 per day, that means that, to get historic production numbers, you need to use around 32 factories CONTINUOSLY since 1936 to 1945 to get historic numbers. That sounds completely out of reach, if you want to make something else apart from 109s

I see your point. There is another ~50% productivity bonus out there for the remaining 5 years of building which may help a little. But in addition, there is the entire rubber shortage problem that also limits production.

 

[panzerzombie]

I see your point. There is another ~50% productivity bonus out there for the remaining 5 years of building which may help a little. But in addition, there is the entire rubber shortage problem that also limits production.

Iirc none of the german players traded for any rubber nor built any refinery

edit: superfluous post, devout already pointed that out

 

[Devout]

Nevertheless I´m interested in the costs of LTrak and Panzer I, I couldnt find anything in the WWW because they did not mark the field "show obsolete equip".

Perhaps it would be wise to spam tons of cheap Ltraks for a lot of Panzerdivs ( crappy or nonexisting combat value, but only for training

The other aspect to that strategy is whether there is a good application for those units when medium tanks come out (Lend Lease, or deploy to another theater). But I think the main thing killing this strategy is the use of oil. Right now, you would need to lose some civilian factories to feed those factories. If you are not getting quality equipment, its probably not worth it in the long run.

 

[panzerzombie]

Well since the resource demand is per factory I will get a lot more tanks out of the same amount of factories as when producing some good tanks. If - assuming - the lesser tanks need half as much IC you get twice as much or need half as much factories(and resources) and could use the remainder for other things. Since they are only needed for training and as placeholders (for real tanks) they can be discarded.

As soon as you have real tanks you need to replace those asap ofc.

 

[Devout]

Well since the resource demand is per factory I will get a lot more tanks out of the same amount of factories as when producing some good tanks. If - assuming - the lesser tanks need half as much IC you get twice as much or need half as much factories and could use the remainder for other things. Since they are only needed for training and as placeholders (for real tanks) they can be discarded.

As soon as you have real tanks you need to replace those asap ofc.

I didn't see a big need to assist training. I would be more curious to see if it is a good compliment to motorized units. With rubber being harder to acquire than oil, could sticking them in with motorized units during Barbarossa have a net gain.

 

[Devout]

Based on WWW #7, I have some observations:

1. Note that Fighter level 2 (spitfire) added an extra oil. I think we are going to see the resource needs increase significantly due to technology advancement.
2. I have flip flopped on this subject, but WWW #7 leads me to believe that gearing rate of increase is impacted by resources. Based on Germany vs. England start/end points in gearing efficiency, I think the gearing rate is impacted in the same way as production. So if 1 of 3 resources is lacking, the production will be at approximately 66% and the weekly gearing increase will be at approximately 66%. I think they are changing this as they balance the game. So I would expect this to change some more.
3. I believe that damaging factories results in gearing efficiency loss. Gearing starts back at 10% when factory is repaired.

 

[hunding00]

2. I have flip flopped on this subject, but WWW #7 leads me to believe that gearing rate of increase is impacted by resources. Based on Germany vs. England start/end points in gearing efficiency, I think the gearing rate is impacted in the same way as production. So if 1 of 3 resources is lacking, the production will be at approximately 66% and the weekly gearing increase will be at approximately 66%. I think they are changing this as they balance the game. So I would expect this to change some more

IIRC, One of the Devs mentioned that a production line which lacks any of the required resources will not see improvements in its gearing efficiency bonus/malus..

 

[Devout]

IIRC, One of the Devs mentioned that a production line which lacks any of the required resources will not see improvements in its gearing efficiency bonus/malus..

That is part of the reason I referenced flip flopping.
1. There was indication by devs pre WWW that you needed resources to gear up.

2. In WWW1, there was a tool tip that reported no gearing increase without resources.

3. By WWW4, the tool tip disappeared.

4. By WWW4, it was obvious the rule was not in effect. Germany has made no effort to get rubber during the entire game (all 7 videos). But even without rubber, Germany achieved good gearing rates for his airplanes and motorized units.

5. In WWW7, there was a gearing reset which allowed a glimpse into the increase rate by comparing different units started at the same time, and UK/Germany resets. Late in the video, Germany clearly shows its tactical bombers without rubber are lagging behind the anti-tank weapons which have all the resources. Some quick number crunching with estimates indicated that a 1/3 rate loss make sense.

 

[TheOrangeGuy]

4. No radar stations built (by both sides) that would tie up civilian factories.

I think Johan built radar stations, he mentions a lot how much he loves them at least. And I just have to add, the alternative name for wolfram is tungsten, not tungston

 

[Devout]

Yes, WWW#7 showed a bunch of radar sites as well as the performance boost. I think they clearly modify their game style based on known or expected bugs, and balance issues. I am surprised that three different german players ignored synthetic refinery investments. I'm guessing it needs more balancing.