WWW Poland - no Soviet invasion with "historical" 1939 start setting?

[tom_jones]

Just something in the last WWW stream that got me wondering; while the player was able to hold until 1940, he was effectively only fighting a war on one front, completely disregarding the east border. What's more, he never appeared worried there's even a chance of Soviet Union attacking him, once the war broke out.

However, historically this was not the case, as Poland was forced to fight a war on two fronts starting as early as ~two week in. Needless to say this creates very different situation, both when it comes to defense and the chances/length of survival.

So that left me wondering, does it mean this game, even with 1939 start and "historical" settings (meaning no real chance for the player to alter the course of history through decisions etc) ... skip this invasion? And for whatever reasons pretends it's only German/Polish conflict? It'd be rather disappointing, if that's the case. I mean, there's already some questionable gameplay simplifications in other areas, but if a game that's all about WW2 can't get the outbreak of WW2 right, even if starting from pre-configured point... well.

 

[Evan05]

Considering his complete disregard of the Polish-Soviet border and that we have not yet seen a Soviet Union invade Poland shortly after Germany does, it makes me quite worried that the Soviets will not historically take Eastern Poland.

Maybe the Devs could add a unique event specifically for the Soviets that fires shortly after Germany invades Poland through the "Danzig or War" focus with the options of invading Poland or holding off, with both options having different effects.

 

[JerkyJerry]

I'm not 100% on this but I think Daniel attacked Poland before 9/1/1939 so maybe that precluded the M/R pact?
If I remember correctly when that event fired in HOI3 was in not on 9/1/1939?
I'm sure someone else will know

 

[ObssesedNuker]

I'm not 100% on this but I think Daniel attacked Poland before 9/1/1939 so maybe that precluded the M/R pact?

Daniel was playing Poland. Poland can't attack Poland.

I can't remember if the MR Pact fired in that game, let me go watch the youtube recording and report back.

 

[JerkyJerry]

Daniel was playing Poland. Poland can't attack Poland.

I can't remember if the MR Pact fired in that game, let me go watch the youtube recording and report back.

LOL
DOH!
Yeah Germany attacked Daniel AKA Poland before 9/1/1939
Thanks ON

 

[Dr. Frog]

Hearts of Iron 3 has a lot of different possible routes if you start at an earlier date (as is to be expected), but I think it always went something like this:

-Germany invades Poland
-Poland can't into space, gets captured pretty quickly
-Germany conquers all of Poland (note: does not actually take over Eastern bits, but Poland surrenders/capitulates before then, and Germany 'gets' the provinces anyway)
-After Poland is conquered, Germany gives eastern half to Soviet Union (or risks immediate war/diplomatic penalties from Soviets)

In reality, it was something like
-Germany invades Western Poland
-Poland doesn't do great
-Germany conquers Western Poland, slows at Central Poland
-As pre-planned by both sides, Soviets invade from the East
-Poland isn't sure how to respond to the Soviets, and there is a general lack of defense (sporadic smaller battles with primarily reserve/rear units and militia); communication and supplies are once again hampered on Eastern front
-Poland is crushed somewhat like a tin can between the two regional superpowers; German and Soviet commanders often work together when meeting up near the center, including working together on sieges and during battles, but also for parades and the like
-Polish resistance generally falters, not only due to a lack of military but also due to a populace that wasn't entirely opposed to the occupations
-Germans and Soviets divvy up the land as they agreed to BEFORE the invasion

I agree that it's a bit too much of a simplification/"Grand View" of the joint German-Soviet Invasion of Poland from the 1939 start date (perhaps the thought is something like 'Germany did the initial and majority of the brute work') that we saw in WWW, and indeed rather a shame. Forgivable from an earlier start date, most certainly, and I in no way think the game needs to be on rails or anything, but it did seem like there wasn't even the option of the Soviet Union invading (I suppose that's how the Polish acted too at first, "Plan West" and all that; I would love to hear if it's even possible for the Soviets to actively INVADE Eastern Poland, not just get it after the fighting like in HoI3).

 

[Opanashc]

Red Army entered Western Ukraine+Belarus when Poland was done, and its government ran away into Romania. "Let them kill each other" - Germany was an ideological enemy, and Poland was an enemy from 1920s.

 

[potski]

Germany attacked on 30 August. We didn't see whether there was the M-R Pact already, but there must have been. If Daniel had allowed the game to continue after Poland capitulated we would have seen the Soviet Union take Eastern Poland a few days later. There have been threads about this in the past.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Nope, looks like the MR Pact never fired. Which is odd, given that under historical focuses Germany should have taken it pretty much from the outset. Although given that at this point negotiations were on-going, it should start with the pact option already selected...

We didn't see whether there was the M-R Pact already, but there must have been.

Possibly not: historically it was only signed on August 23rd.

 

[ArcandSpark]

In historical mode I would expect things to play out fairly close to history with a few things guaranteed to happen like The Anschluss, Italy joining the axis, and the Soviet Union joining with Germany to beat Poland just to name a few.

 

[The Starfox]

Just something in the last WWW stream that got me wondering; while the player was able to hold until 1940, he was effectively only fighting a war on one front, completely disregarding the east border. What's more, he never appeared worried there's even a chance of Soviet Union attacking him, once the war broke out.

However, historically this was not the case, as Poland was forced to fight a war on two fronts starting as early as ~two week in. Needless to say this creates very different situation, both when it comes to defense and the chances/length of survival.

So that left me wondering, does it mean this game, even with 1939 start and "historical" settings (meaning no real chance for the player to alter the course of history through decisions etc) ... skip this invasion? And for whatever reasons pretends it's only German/Polish conflict? It'd be rather disappointing, if that's the case. I mean, there's already some questionable gameplay simplifications in other areas, but if a game that's all about WW2 can't get the outbreak of WW2 right, even if starting from pre-configured point... well.

They don't have the Soviet Union invade, because then the Soviet Union would be stuck in a war with the Allies (Poland is part of the Allies, after all). This outcome is far worse for the "historical" path than letting the Soviet Union grab land after Poland surrenders.

 

[Dr. Frog]

Germany attacked on 30 August. We didn't see whether there was the M-R Pact already, but there must have been. If Daniel had allowed the game to continue after Poland capitulated we would have seen the Soviet Union take Eastern Poland a few days later. There have been threads about this in the past.

Yes, but that's not the point, we want to see the Soviet Union invading Poland WITH Germany like in real life; the Germans and Soviets were actively engaging the Polish military simultaneously, and there were even battles/sieges where Russian and German troops worked together. Representing it in-game as 'Germany conquers Poland, gives some of it to the Soviet Union' may work in some instances, but it didn't seem like a joint invasion was at all expected or possible. (Maybe for balance reasons- Poles would surrender too fast, or perhaps because Poland could join the Allies' faction?)

 

[ArcandSpark]

They don't have the Soviet Union invade, because then the Soviet Union would be stuck in a war with the Allies (Poland is part of the Allies, after all). This outcome is far worse for the "historical" path than letting the Soviet Union grab land after Poland surrenders.

There could be a work around made for just this one important event where the Soviet Union would not be at war with the allies. It's possible to do and would be triggered in an event I would expect. That would solve the issue.

 

[potski]

It's not possible to do that unless you break the sandbox. The devs have insisted that there will be nothing like that. If the Soviet Union had invaded Poland in mid-Sept then the Allies would all have DoW'ed the Soviets.

Nope, looks like the MR Pact never fired. Which is odd, given that under historical focuses Germany should have taken it pretty much from the outset. Although given that at this point negotiations were on-going, it should start with the pact option already selected...

Possibly not: historically it was only signed on August 23rd.

The M-R Pact is an NF. They take 70 days to complete. Therefore there will never be entirely historical dates for both the Pact and the DoW.

 

[scroggin]

There could be a work around made for just this one important event where the Soviet Union would not be at war with the allies. It's possible to do and would be triggered in an event I would expect. That would solve the issue.

Thats what we should have. An event that allows the soviets to attack poland without being at war with the allies if Germany and the Soviet Union have signed the MR pact.

In real life the allies guarantee on Poland was a guarantee against German invasion nothing more.

 

[potski]

Only because Germany was threatening Poland. The Soviet Union wasn't, and it was not known about the secret protocols in the Pact. They didn't declare war on Poland and said they were there to defend the area and prevent Germany expanding it's borders to the Polish western border. There appears to have been no partisan activity in the west, until it was invaded by Germany in 1941. At first there was co-operation between Polish and Soviet partisans, until Katyn was discovered.

 

[Opanashc]

Only because Germany was threatening Poland. The Soviet Union wasn't, and it was not known about the secret protocols in the Pact. They didn't declare war on Poland and said they were there to defend the area and prevent Germany expanding it's borders to the Polish western border.

Also, in 1945 Stalin said something along the lines: "do you want us to be lesser patriots of USSR than Lord Kerzon?" referring to proposed 1920 Kerzon line, which closely resembles the border of USSR with Poland since 1939.
The other reason Allies didn't declare war on SU over Poland, was their hopes of a German-Soviet war. If both countries had a common enemy, they would much less likely to fight each other.

 

[warmoger55]

Only because Germany was threatening Poland. The Soviet Union wasn't, and it was not known about the secret protocols in the Pact. They didn't declare war on Poland and said they were there to defend the area and prevent Germany expanding it's borders to the Polish western border. There appears to have been no partisan activity in the west, until it was invaded by Germany in 1941. At first there was co-operation between Polish and Soviet partisans, until Katyn was discovered.

The guarantee that was from France stated only Germany but the one with britian was and overall guarantee and the polish government assumed that the British would all so go to war with the USSR but that never happened

 

[random258]

Considering his complete disregard of the Polish-Soviet border and that we have not yet seen a Soviet Union invade Poland shortly after Germany does, it makes me quite worried that the Soviets will not historically take Eastern Poland.

Maybe the Devs could add a unique event specifically for the Soviets that fires shortly after Germany invades Poland through the "Danzig or War" focus with the options of invading Poland or holding off, with both options having different effects.

At least in HOI 3 there was an event in which the Germans could decide to give the east to the Soviets or not. I think it is better as a true invasion wouldn't really work as in real life the diplomacy was quite complicated - how would the AI (Britain/France) decide if they should consider the Soviets an aggressor or not (as they did in real life, under the pretext of the Soviets "protecting them" IIRC). Thus, I think it is easier if the Germans do the full invasion and then decide to hand the east to the soviets, at least from a diplomatic point of view. Or maybe have an event chain starting from the invasion that disregards guarantees of independence and just gives the Allies a decision in which they can be hostile to the SU or not?

 

[Evan05]

At least in HOI 3 there was an event in which the Germans could decide to give the east to the Soviets or not. I think it is better as a true invasion wouldn't really work as in real life the diplomacy was quite complicated - how would the AI (Britain/France) decide if they should consider the Soviets an aggressor or not (as they did in real life, under the pretext of the Soviets "protecting them" IIRC). Thus, I think it is easier if the Germans do the full invasion and then decide to hand the east to the soviets, at least from a diplomatic point of view. Or maybe have an event chain starting from the invasion that disregards guarantees of independence and just gives the Allies a decision in which they can be hostile to the SU or not?

The unique event that would fire for the Soviet's would be exceptional in that it would disregard the guarantee on Poland's independence. Both options (Invade Poland or just let the Germans do the work) will have pros and cons.

If the Soviet's do decide to invade, it will hurt relations with the Allies and Poland, increase relations with the Axis, and as a Soviet player it would guarantee that you got Eastern Poland (as Germany doesn't have it give it to you). In addition, it would give you some army experience.

If they don't decide to invade, it will increase relations with the Allies and Poland, hurt relations with the Axis, but it doesn't guarantee the Soviet's will get Eastern Poland from Germany, and another benefit is that it would conserve manpower and units (all units will be invaluable to the Soviets if Germany invades in the coming years).

This way, it allows for both a historical situation to happen, and gives a player as the Soviet Union more options and freedom.