WWW Japan Bug?

[DawnofAzazel]

I just caught up with the latest WWW and couldn't help but notice what I assume was a bug or potentially a serious game play flaw.

The Japanese managed to not only establish a beachhead but cause New Zealand to capitulate despite the fearsome Bob Semple tank.

Did I miss Germany sending 100-150 Divisions to help with the invasion?

I'm sure this bug will be fixed by release.

 

[jcronin1995]

Yeah, really disappointed in Pdox here. I was really looking forward to this game, but if they are gonna even pretend to suggest that the Bob Semple tank could be beaten, I'm just gonna have to stop supporting them.

Hopefully they just tweaked the game a bit to show off for WWW, and the Bob Semple tank will win the war for the allies in the release build. Because let's be honest here, it's an ahistorical game, not a fantasy game.

 

[DawnofAzazel]

Yeah, really disappointed in Pdox here. I was really looking forward to this game, but if they are gonna even pretend to suggest that the Bob Semple tank could be beaten, I'm just gonna have to stop supporting them.

Hopefully they just tweaked the game a bit to show off for WWW, and the Bob Semple tank will win the war for the allies in the release build. Because let's be honest here, it's an ahistorical game, not a fantasy game.

I'm glad that I am not alone on this issue.

IIRC it was assumed that a single Bob Semple tank was roughly the equal to a German Panzer Division and anywhere between 7-10 IJA infantry divisions although some rather controversial studies predicted as many as 14 (perhaps better left in the realm of science fiction)

I agree that this could really be a deal breaker but the game is still in beta and as I said earlier I faith that Paradox will manage to make good on their quite frankly enormous oversight.

 

[Gwayne]

Well they could have used the Schofield tank...

 

[wingo]

It`s quite simple really, New Zealand AI did not build any to give Axis a fighting chance!

 

[Centerbe]

Not only new zealand, notice during invasions every country invaded didnt react. Never.
95% of the army parking far from home front in provinces with harbors, or support allied invasion somewhere.

 

[Mannstien]

Not only new zealand, notice during invasions every country invaded didnt react. Never.
95% of the army parking far from home front in provinces with harbors, or support allied invasion somewhere.

I was actually a bit surprised that by 1943 with this massive war going on Romania didn't have a massive army by then.

 

[Centerbe]

I was actually a bit surprised that by 1943 with this massive war going on Romania didn't have a massive army by then.

probably the army was somewhere.... and AI didnt use it for defend homeland.

 

[tom_jones]

I was actually a bit surprised that by 1943 with this massive war going on Romania didn't have a massive army by then.

IIRC the Germany player actually mentioned Romania did have pretty large army, larger than what he threw at them in fact. The army was however spread around entire Romanian border, and couldn't stand up to combined push of German infantry and tanks which managed to get some breakthroughs and encirclements.

 

[Centerbe]

IIRC the Germany player actually mentioned Romania did have pretty large army, larger than what he threw at them in fact. The army was however spread around entire Romanian border, and couldn't stand up to combined push of German infantry and tanks which managed to get some breakthroughs and encirclements.

here romania stand their army at east border only, not the entire border... at least use the army for defend own territory.

here during invasion the country didnt react, 90% of army is parking only... 34 divisions parked in provinces with an harbor, 15 out of the country, and 5 divisions near the front but without any activity.

 

[Daddl]

We can safely assume that the AI in the current WWW is the most broken thing. I didn't notice anyone except Greece doing anything.

 

[Alpha2518]

here romania stand their army at east border only, not the entire border... at least use the army for defend own territory.


here during invasion the country didnt react, 90% of army is parking only... 34 divisions parked in provinces with an harbor, 15 out of the country, and 5 divisions near the front but without any activity.

Yeah but with italy it's atleast defensible to keep those troops there. If you send all the troops down south, the allies can land north of them and then cut them off and now your sandwhiched between two armies. What Italy needed was German help which Daniel didn't given and should have given as opposed to letting it fall. Which was a stupid fucking move.

 

[Centerbe]

Have no sense prevent an hypothetical invasion with 90% of the army in harbors when an invasion its just in act and advance from south....
In fact country capitulated and their divisions was still at north, immobile.
How to close the cat's cage after is already escaped

 

[Alpha2518]

Have no sense prevent an hypothetical invasion with 90% of the army in harbors when an invasion its just in act and advance from south....
In fact country capitulated and their divisions was still at north, immobile.
How to close the cat's cage after is already escaped

I don't know if you were watching but those troops who were at the toe of Italy got surrounded and cut off when troops landed north of them. And they were shortly destroyed thereafter. If you move everything south, it's not hard to imagine it happening again and perhaps Italy might fall even faster in theory since we cannot see all of the VPs Italy has.

And yes the country capitulated but that was when the allies reached Rome. Sending the army south still leaves this an open possibility even if the allied army could theoretically be stopped by Italy. But lets remember italian divisions suck and are weak. Sending the army south would not stop the fall of itialy even if it could stop the northward advance. All the allies would have to do is land around Rome and quickly assault it and overrun the weak divisions guarding it. And there are some 60 allied divisions in Italy which we saw in WWW.

No amount of Italian divisions will stop 60 allied divisions, most of which are American. The only real solution is German help

 

[Centerbe]

Yes some few divisions was encircled at south. This do not explain why use 12 divisions for defend a single harbor in the far north, and dont let 8 or 10 move to south for defend the front. Or why dont use some of them for defend the capital, so much important for national unity (for example). And why use 15 division out of country for invade romania, when there was an invasion in homeland. This mean every AI will always being immobile, paralized, for avoid to being encircled? 3-4 divisions are parked in the middle of country defending a mountain, its for possible alien invasion?

We can continue to do dozens of this strategic examples. But these are arguments of human reasoning about tactical/strategic decisions. Seems only clear that the whole AI was essentially immobile and passive. As well as in case of romanian army. Why romania defend only the east border where no enemy division was deployed? No 1 division at west where germany and allies crowded troops.

 

[Alpha2518]

Yes some few divisions was encircled at south. This do not explain why use 12 divisions for defend a single harbor in the far north, and dont let 8 or 10 move to south for defend the front. Or why dont use some of them for defend the capital, so much important for national unity (for example). And why use 15 division out of country for invade romania, when there was an invasion in homeland. This mean every AI will always being immobile, paralized, for avoid to being encircled? 3-4 divisions are parked in the middle of country defending a mountain, its for possible alien invasion?

We can continue to do dozens of this strategic examples. But these are arguments of human reasoning about tactical/strategic decisions. Seems only clear that the whole AI was essentially immobile and passive. As well as in case of romanian army. Why romania defend only the east border where no enemy division was deployed? No 1 division at west where germany and allies crowded troops.

I don't think you understand how weak italian divisions are. You can't just leave a few there because they'll be roflstomped by the far better allied divisions. All they have to do is dog pile the few italian divisions and it is over. Also they are there to react in event you have a major push there. How many divisions would you leave there? 3? 4? 2? What happens when the allies land six, eight, whatever # divisions and then force their way through. That reasoning is quite defensible and even the Germans kept forces back to the rear in Italy because they knew the Allies could always land behind their defenses and then they could be screwed. Which happened at Anzio which was almost a disaster.

Remember Italian Divisions start out as binary, meaning they have two brigades of whatever the brigade is composed off. Allied divisions are not binary and here comes the problem. The allies have more brigades which means more mean and more firepower and equipment is brought to bear. Now as this is the AI I don't have much faith in the AI redesigning it's divisions into a player. Even if it was a player and based on past HOI games I still wouldn't put much weight in the redesigned Italian Divisions.

Is the conduct of holding divisions back defensible, especially given that Italian Divisions cannot win a 1 to 1 fight with a allied division? Yes Even if you brought in the 15 Divisions from Romania the situation still wouldn't change because Italian Divisions are just that bad. Goes back to my original point of the only real solution being German help. Send them all to the south, hold like you should, either way Italy goes down without German help, this is a indisputable fact.

Also for defending the capital. AI should've already had units there. Why it didn't or why Dan didn't. I haven't a damn clue.

 

[Centerbe]

I don't think you understand how weak italian divisions are. You can't just leave a few there because they'll be roflstomped by the far better allied divisions. All they have to do is dog pile the few italian divisions and it is over. Also they are there to react in event you have a major push there. How many divisions would you leave there? 3? 4? 2? What happens when the allies land six, eight, whatever # divisions and then force their way through. That reasoning is quite defensible and even the Germans kept forces back to the rear in Italy because they knew the Allies could always land behind their defenses and then they could be screwed. Which happened at Anzio which was almost a disaster.

Remember Italian Divisions start out as binary, meaning they have two brigades of whatever the brigade is composed off. Allied divisions are not binary and here comes the problem. The allies have more brigades which means more mean and more firepower and equipment is brought to bear. Now as this is the AI I don't have much faith in the AI redesigning it's divisions into a player. Even if it was a player and based on past HOI games I still wouldn't put much weight in the redesigned Italian Divisions.

Is the conduct of holding divisions back defensible, especially given that Italian Divisions cannot win a 1 to 1 fight with a allied division? Yes Even if you brought in the 15 Divisions from Romania the situation still wouldn't change because Italian Divisions are just that bad. Goes back to my original point of the only real solution being German help. Send them all to the south, hold like you should, either way Italy goes down without German help, this is a indisputable fact.

Also for defending the capital. AI should've already had units there. Why it didn't or why Dan didn't. I haven't a damn clue.

Maybe i dont understand how weak italian divisions are, but i understand perfectly how AI of the game is broken.
You're mixing historical facts with human reasoning and assuming a PC game may dispose of both.

Now the reason of AI paralized is the weakness of the divisions.... what mean "What happens when the allies land six, eight..." its an hypothesis or they know just a landing was planned there? Than the 5 solitary divisions near the mountain was cowards divisions keep far from front becasue they know just cant defeat the enemies.
5 divisions of deserters, now is clear. They have no justifications, or Allies can conduct naval invasions also on mountains?

This still does not explain why if the AI believes the divisions are too weak to fight the Allies in the motherland does not believe the same for fight them in a foreign land ?

I suppose the romanian army was escaping from the front, far from german army in the opposite direction.
Poor romanian army they was terrorized, this is the reason? They was unlucky.
Also that east border was german, or running and screaming would they arrive in new zealand swimming.

I hope paradox will advice all users, when there is a weak army no any order will be issued, only terror, paralisys and a long escapes.
Japan will be unplayable nation, they know just 2 nukes will be dropped there and will refuse any order from the start date !

 

[Alpha2518]

You're mixing historical facts with human reasoning and assuming a PC game may dispose of both.

Now the reason of AI paralized is the weakness of the divisions.... what mean "What happens when the allies land six, eight..." its an hypothesis or they know just a landing was planned there? Than the 5 solitary divisions near the mountain was cowards divisions keep far from front becasue they know just cant defeat the enemies.
5 divisions of deserters, now is clear. They have no justifications, or Allies can conduct naval invasions also on mountains?

I suppose the romanian army was escaping from the front, far from german army in the opposite direction.
Poor romanian army they was terrorized, this is the reason? They was unlucky.
Also that east border was german, or running and screaming would they arrive in new zealand swimming.

I hope paradox will advice all users, when there is a weak army no any order will be issued, only terror, paralisys and a long escapes.
Japan will be unplayable nation, they know just 2 nukes will be dropped there and will refuse any order from the start date !

What damn coastal province is a mountain in Italy? The correct answer is 0, the only one that I could imagine that could make that claim would be Gibraltar and some Scandinavian provinces. Now heres a military concept that's not new. Accept no unnecessary risk. By leaving those areas more exposed or vulnerable to landings then they already are, you are accepting an unnecessary risk. And so you have to minimize it. Only way to do that is to have troops there to react for the possibility of a landing. Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean that it couldn't happen and why incentivize it by making those areas weaker.

I'm not saying the AI is paralyzed for any reason, these are clear and valid military reasons and decision making that even people in the situation back then historically understood. Remember this isn't France where you have a large coast line where you could at least say "We don't know were the allies will land so lets have a reserve." This is Italy, it is long and skinny and makes it much more conductive to naval flanking and encirclement because it doesn't take long to get from one coastline to the other.

With that in mind suppose the allies were theoretically stopped because you did send those divisions down. Now I as the allied player know or suspect that the forces guarding your ports are weak. And I'm confident i can overrun them quickly because you can't hold the port and front line at the same time If you send troops to reinforce the defense against the naval landing from being cut off I can push from the South to try and break through. If you send them back to stop the breakthrough my forces will capture the port and cut off your divisions. The allies had atleast 60 divisions in Italy at the end of the steam to Italy's 35 from what I counted on the map. We already know Italian divisions cannot stand up 1 to 1 to Allied divisions and need numerical superiority to stand a chance due to them being garbage.

So it's very easy for me as the Allied player with whatever option I do destroy Italy. Personally I'd do a naval invasion, cut off your troops and destroy them from both ends while pushing up north because that would be the most efficient way to go about it. Now you lost some 20-25 divisions, maybe more depending on how much you want to strip the other ports of their defences. Do you see my point? No matter what Italy either way it's doomed whether it sends all troops to the south which is the worst option or hold as is which is the safer option as it guards the flanks as opposed to leaving them dangerously exposed. And actually I don't have to land just on one coastline. Because Italy is so narrow I would be pretty confident I could land on both sides and using the supplies in the region cut off your troops even faster while defending and taking the port.

There's only one option realistically if you want Italy to survive which is the objective, that is German help. I would send 40-50 german divisions and that would be more then enough to combat the Allied divisions that we saw in the steam. Though I might send more to have a what we in the military call a QRF (Quick Reaction Force)

Remember the objective is to keep Italy from Surrendering. Have we established Italian Divisions cannot do it by themselves? Yes. Do know know how many Italian and Aliied divisions there are? Yes we do roughly and we can get a more exact number by watching the replay. I'm not saying the AI is paralyzed because of fear of encirclement or garbage troops. What I'm saying is that the AI did the right thing militarily because it can't win either either option and so it picked the best option that it could do without falling even faster by sending everything south. All it could do realistically would be to sit tight and wait for German help.

 

[Centerbe]

What damn coastal province is a mountain in Italy?

We continue to talk about different things, maybe u lost my previous post with screens.
This divisions circled in yellow for you parking in a coastal provinces? Where u see the sea? What are they doing near mountains?

U still dont answer about romanian army, why they face the "nothing"? When enemies divisions was on opposite border.....

Pls why u answer with historical facts and your personal historical observations, when we are talking in this post about the game AI?
AI = Artificial Intelligence, is the intelligence exhibited by machines or software.

We was talking about this, not the history.
Why a nation not playable (AI control the nation) use their entire army on the only border is useless to defend? No enemy was there.
For you its not a sort of exploit if every nation u invade keep his army in the opposite border of your invasion?

 

[Alpha2518]

I already said why they are there. They are there too react in a central area wherever the Allies land. Also I'm not concerned about Romania. I'm focusing entirely on Italy itself. In any event the bizzare Romanian thing is probably some AI brain fart. I don't even remember seeing something like that in HoI3 including the mods I played where an army lines up entirely against nothing. Perhaps the AI just wanted to give a hand or they were part of the Italian expedition given to Dan. In which case they are under German Command and not the AIs command which would be the only reason that makes sense.