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Midden

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You can land a single parachute division from UK into Switzerland it in a few hours it occupies the province - liberates it and then it can cut a swath from Geneva to Paris liberating every province it passes through and it seems to only take a couple of hour ticks to move province distances and change control of each province you pass through with no diminution to your divisions strength. They don't need to leave some blokes behind to guard the cross roads to retain the province?

When not held up in combat it seems to me divisions move too fast through hostile territory and can flip it too fast. In my view this conquest needs to be slowed down... WWII looks to be over way too fast. It's more like Risk.

The design of Divisions and the combat effectiveness needs to be looked at again please. The statement in WWWednesady "If I build 3*3 infantry divisions these will have more "Org", and allow me to assault the Russians and stay in combat Longer so they retreat first." (the most efficient strategy for a power player in HoiV is to remove artillery battalions to keep them simple Divs to produce and this seems to also have an upside as the player states it is more combat effective Div template, than those with Artillery battalions).

Oh my ... this is so far from Real Life. It is a nonsense. An infantry only division is indeed capable of defending bad terrain, urban, mountain. But on the attack: It is painfully slow:, a few enemy machine guns will stop it dead in it's tracks (remember WWI).

Just to rub salt in:

The order from high command comes in, Dear commander - our latest combat advice is to strip away all the Divisions Artillery Assets, my dear troops, there was a cock up on the production front and we have stopped making artillery..... but anyway as it turns out you will fight much harder and longer with out it and our new combat algorithms mean you will be able to assault more effectively and longer with out it...... Rolls eyes.

What caused the most combat casualties in WWII by a huge margin? It was not carried around by the infantry and it starts with the letter A.

I like a lot of what I am seeing in HOI IV. My criticism is only hoping to be constructive ....

1) I think units move too fast and capture provinces to quickly.
2) The combat effectiveness of the components of division designer needs to have some semblance to real life. For example ....The reason Italian Divisions were considered weak compared to their opponent was not a lack of infantry (i.e: in game limiting them to a 2*3 template vs an opponent 3*3 infantry) , the core weakness for them was their lack of sufficient heavy weapons, anti-tank and amour in the Division. Well that's my view.
 
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Denkt

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The WWW version is probably very outdated by now. Balances will come with the beta but the main problems seems to be ai related.
 

safe-keeper

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Remember that an infantry-only division doesn't consist of only riflemen. They will have mortars, rocket launchers, land mines, what have you.
 
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GeneralPetrov

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How many times does this need to be said? It's an alpha. The game is not properly balanced (or bug fixed) yet. That's what Beta is for.

If it was near release and had been in beta for a few months, I would understand your concern... But it isn't. I think people are watching WWW with expectations for balance that are unrealistic at this stage in development.
 
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Midden

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I am not pointing out general balance issue actually some nit picky details of the combat presented to us.

So you are saying an all inf division has some small range support weapons and no heavy weapons and that will / should be a better more viable core division to assault across the steppes (that is what the PDox player with 1700hrs is saying to us), than one having heavy weapons as well?

And your saying having seen that the designers seem to be saying that 3*3 infantry is great for defense and offence, that I shouldn't point out that this is a bit off, in the hope that it won't be in the final release.

That pointing this out is not necessary and a waste of time and slightly irksome because that's certainly going to be changed?
 
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Denkt

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France did rather well against the German army and a better Soviet ai would probably destroyed the German army and a Soviet player would probably have annexed Germany.
 

No idea

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Remember that an infantry-only division doesn't consist of only riflemen. They will have mortars, rocket launchers, land mines, what have you.

yes , but it goes against reality that rich only in infantry division performs, in overall terms, better than one with less infantry but more artillery support (artillery support beyond the infantry guns, and sometimes anti tank guns, all infantry divisions had)
 
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Vidkjaer

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You can land a single parachute division from UK into Switzerland it in a few hours it occupies the province - liberates it and then it can cut a swath from Geneva to Paris liberating every province it passes through and it seems to only take a couple of hour ticks to move province distances and change control of each province you pass through with no diminution to your divisions strength. They don't need to leave some blokes behind to guard the cross roads to retain the province?

When not held up in combat it seems to me divisions move too fast through hostile territory and can flip it too fast. In my view this conquest needs to be slowed down... WWII looks to be over way too fast. It's more like Risk.

The design of Divisions and the combat effectiveness needs to be looked at again please. The statement in WWWednesady "If I build 3*3 infantry divisions these will have more "Org", and allow me to assault the Russians and stay in combat Longer so they retreat first."

Oh my ... this is so far from Real Life. It is a nonsense. An infantry only division is indeed capable of defending bad terrain, urban, mountain. But on the attack: It is painfully slow:, a few enemy machine guns will stop it dead in it's tracks (remember WWI).

Just to rub salt in:

The order from high command comes in, Dear commander - our latest combat advice is to strip away all the Divisions Artillery Assets, my dear troops, there was a cock up on the production front and we have stopped making artillery..... but anyway as it turns out you will fight much harder and longer with out it and our new combat algorithms mean you will be able to assault more effectively and longer with out it...... Rolls eyes.

What caused the most combat casualties in WWII by a huge margin? It was not carried around by the infantry and it starts with the letter A.

I like a lot of what I am seeing in HOI IV. My criticism is only hoping to be constructive ....

1) I think units move too fast and capture provinces to quickly.
2) The combat effectiveness of the components of division designer needs to have some semblance to real life. For example ....The reason Italian Divisions were considered weak compared to their opponent was not a lack of infantry (i.e: in game limiting them to a 2*3 template vs an opponent 3*3 infantry) , the core weakness for them was their lack of sufficient heavy weapons, anti-tank and amour in the Division. Well that's my view.

Just make one battalion infantry divisions with lowest equipment priority... and make them your cross roads guards in each province.
 

kviiri

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My guess, backed by no real knowledge whatsoever, is that artillery provides better bang per combat width than infantry. If that's the case, their main advantage is being able to reinforce combats easier (it's easy to participate when you can act several kilometers away from the actual battle) and leave room for other reinforcements too.
 

Axe99

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I agree with Midden, that the movement we've seen in WWW is far too fast (I felt the same about the German troops wandering through the SCW, bouncing about all over the place very quickly through terrain that in some cases shouldn't have been easygoing, particularly when combat was involved), and that the removal of artillery made divisions more effective in combat, but am not worried at this stage for two reasons:

- They're still balancing, and by all accounts will be for some while;
- The things we're talking about - movement, terrain effects, impact of artillery and infantry on combat stats - are all very likely to be moddable, so as long as we can tweak things to make them look reasonable, even if the devs vision is for something a bit rapid-fire than movement during the period, we'll be able to tweak it to something we'd prefer.
 
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HerrWeltkrieg

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well doctrines are one thing as well, and supply too, infantry divisions with mass produced lighter equipment are more easily supplied over such distances and more mobile, again it is alpha, but I do share some of your fears (pun intended)
 

Vidkjaer

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I agree with Midden, that the movement we've seen in WWW is far too fast (I felt the same about the German troops wandering through the SCW, bouncing about all over the place very quickly through terrain that in some cases shouldn't have been easygoing, particularly when combat was involved), and that the removal of artillery made divisions more effective in combat, but am not worried at this stage for two reasons:

- They're still balancing, and by all accounts will be for some while;
- The things we're talking about - movement, terrain effects, impact of artillery and infantry on combat stats - are all very likely to be moddable, so as long as we can tweak things to make them look reasonable, even if the devs vision is for something a bit rapid-fire than movement during the period, we'll be able to tweak it to something we'd prefer.
There is 1.800 km from Berlin to Moscow. Traveling 4 km/hour 12 hours a day. that equals 37,5 days.The russians didnt put up much of a fight so why isnt that plausible? Daniel started in november at the polish/russian border and in 5 months advanced what in a straight line would take 2-3 months.
Maybe my numbers a wrong?
 
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You can land a single parachute division from UK into Switzerland it in a few hours it occupies the province

There wasn't a single unit defending Switzerland or eastern France. Can you imagine? Occupied Swiss territory, allied troops land. Nobody protecting the almost purely administrative Nazi presence, who were basically leaving the locals to rule themselves as long as they didn't get too out of hand.

As far as the locals know, this could be happening throughout Reich occupied countries. It'd be amazing if it took more than an hour for a province to but out from under that nominal level of control and then commandeer a train and hoof it onwards!

(This logic doesn't stand up for the German heartland, but basically the mess that occupation truly is is not covered by most war-games)
 

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If its anything like HOI3 paratroopers will only have limited supplies to last for a few days before their organisation starts to take a hit. If not supplied within a few days they will be in a very bad way very quickly. Even whole armies if landed in remote provinces will start to quickly suffer if they don't immmediately capture a port for supplies. I had this happen in my Japanese game in HOI3 where they landed in the Malayan peninsular and soon were out of supply. Even after capturing both ports it took weeks for some of the units to be able to move again after stalling due to lack of organisation.

So no its not like Risk! But it does look a bit like it because you arent seeing many of the other aspects of the game - just the combat manoeuvring. There is much much more going on behind the scenes that we arent seeing because these guys are very knowledgeable about the game, very quick and very efficient. It would have probably taken me months to get to the point they have got to in their game.
 
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adam_grif

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The problem with the modelling has always been that there's nothing forcing the players to act reasonably and have low-level garrisons all over their country. They can, and do strip every on-map unit for their offensives to min-max without leaving reasonably sized forces at home. It's unrealistic that a real country would have literally no troops somewhere, but that's why stuff like this can happen with one division "sniping" a VP with airdrops.
 
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Jazumir

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If, in HoI4, you paradrop on some province with industry, it seems, that that industry will supply the paradrops, if i am not mistaken? To a lesser extent, that is true for any province you drop into. If you drop into an area of like a dozen undefended provinces, taking them all, might be enough to supply your paras fully.

EDIT: About occupation - wouldnt that be one instance, where using attrition as a tool of abstraction might actually make sense? For any province a unit is first to conquer, it has to leave x men+weapons behind (more for conquest, less when liberating) - just attrite them out of the division.
 
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No idea

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There is 1.800 km from Berlin to Moscow. Traveling 4 km/hour 12 hours a day. that equals 37,5 days.The russians didnt put up much of a fight so why isnt that plausible? Daniel started in november at the polish/russian border and in 5 months advanced what in a straight line would take 2-3 months.
Maybe my numbers a wrong?

EVEN with absolutely ZERO opposition an army cant march 48kms per day for a whole month. It has never been done. Not even something remotely similar.

That said, I dont know about how much time it took Daniel to go from the polish/russian border to Moscow, so I cant comment on that, but just five months to reach Moscow during winter, then several "mud weeks" and russian oposition? It seems too short a time. There are around a thousand kms between Brest-Litovsk and Moscow "as the crow flies". In five months, that is 6.6 kms per day during five months. But armies dont march as the crow flies. And when you have opposition your march becomes slower. And especially during winter or the mud season it becomes even slower.
 
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