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Gort11

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Having watched all the World War Wednesdays, I've noticed a few things.

Daniel always wins his wars. He does this by building vast quantities of infantry, assigning them all to a single front under a single leader (usually a field marshal but after the recent doubling of General command limits he's started using those a bit) and then doing tons of micro, all of it to tell his troops to attack. His micro generally consists of these kinds of moves:

  1. He'll attack encircled enemy troops
  2. He'll go for empty provinces in the hope of creating encirclements
  3. He'll attack enemy-held provinces and then later review the attacks, cancelling any that don't go well
Meanwhile when he doesn't do these things, the AI neglects them. It surrounds three encircled enemy divisions with six divisions, and just watches. Gaps in the line go unexploited. Units stand toe-to-toe with enemies, never attacking. Is the AI just too timid? I can't really tell what it's waiting for a lot of the time - units with full strength and organisation stand stock still and Daniel throws them into the meatgrinder and they do fine, so it's not Daniel making mistakes.

The other thing that bugs me is that I've yet to see units other than infantry divisions be particularly meaningful on the battlefield. They're expensive in terms of resources, factories and experience to make, and there are specific general traits to take advantage of them, but Daniel just chucks them into his mob of units along with all the infantry, if he even bothers to build any at all. Air power is the same - often Daniel doesn't think about it very much and the battle has moved on a couple of air zones before he gives his planes new orders, and it's difficult to tell if they're actually having much impact on the battlefield. Presumably as a veteran player, Daniel is doing things optimally, so I can only conclude that infantry is too good compared to everything else in the military.

-----

TL; DR version:

1. The AI is too timid when attacking
2. General traits are underpowered
3. Infantry divisions are too good
4. Air power is too weak
 
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Daniel's Playstyle is definetly not optimal. In the streams he has to speed up alot so he can show more action. And i think also with testing that most of his playthroughs are at high speeds, so he can run multiple games and scenarios per day. So i think his lack of optimization comes from fast forward routine where there is no time for opti.

And for the ai, It trys to follow the the battleplan progression. If the front is lacking behind, the shown green progession, it will not advance.
 
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panzerzombie

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What we don´t know is: perhaps the "waiting" units are building up battleplans.

We are told that AI uses them too and the only requirement is time and standing still for it.

Besides that the chinese AI in WWW-Japan was quite eager - perhaps even overeager sometimes - and created many encirclements around daniels units ( could perhaps not be exploited because of chinese lack of strength in its divisions ).
 
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Axe99

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I want to wait until we've seen 1.0 of the game in action before judging the AI too harshly - the latest we heard from @SteelVolt was that he was still very much working on it, so what we're seeing in WWW may well not be a fair indication of what we'll get in 53 days time. That said, I'm a big +1 for making the AI as effective as possible :).
 
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SteelVolt

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Happy to see the AI get attention ^^

As I have not followed all the details in WWW I cannot comment on the specific situations. Sometimes the motives of the AI are unclear and sometimes, yes, it misses opportunities that are obvious to a human.

It is also a question of balance. An AI that plays truly perfectly is not necessarily fun (indeed, in many cases it is not.) On the other hand, an AI that consistently makes obvious mistakes from a humans perspective usually end up feeling boring.

Regardless, I am full time on HoI 4 AI, and will remain for a foreseeable future :D
There are certainly issues left, but it is really shaping up.
And apart from me, I have the wisdom of Wiz and creativity of Groogy to back me up. Not to mention an excellent QA team and a group of great betas :cool:
 
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mursolini

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It is also a question of balance. An AI that plays truly perfectly is not necessarily fun (indeed, in many cases it is not.) On the other hand, an AI that consistently makes obvious mistakes from a humans perspective usually end up feeling boring.
Wouldn`t it be logical to first make an AI that is at least capable of beating average player on equal resources, before going into "good AI" makes game unfun?
So far, we have only seen AI spectacularly fail in situations where it actually had a slight upper hand. Austria being incapable of putting up any resistance whatsoever, despite having quite favourable terrain and parity in industry. The Czechs, again, could put up far better fight. They had tonns of equipment, but they didn`t even try to create massive amounts of untrained infantry, to stall the invasion.

None of the AIs freaks out when player starts to conquer their neighbours. None of larger states tried to do anything to support countries being invaded, to at least stall invasion. After the start of invasion into Austria, every neighbour of Hungary should have tried to shore up their capability to repulse such invasion ASAP.
 
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Wouldn`t it be logical to first make an AI that is at least capable of beating average player on equal resources, before going into "good AI" makes game unfun?

Daniel has the most hours in the game. Its hard to say what state the ai is in when playing against "the best in the world." But anyways from what i saw in the japan campaign the ai looked good. And like SteelVolt said there is 53 more days to make a noob crushing good AI :D
 
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SteelVolt

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Wouldn`t it be logical to first make an AI that is at least capable of beating average player on equal resources, before going into "good AI" makes game unfun?
So far, we have only seen AI spectacularly fail in situations where it actually had a slight upper hand. Austria being incapable of putting up any resistance whatsoever, despite having quite favourable terrain and parity in industry. The Czechs, again, could put up far better fight. They had tonns of equipment, but they didn`t even try to create massive amounts of untrained infantry, to stall the invasion.

None of the AIs freaks out when player starts to conquer their neighbours. None of larger states tried to do anything to support countries being invaded, to at least stall invasion. After the start of invasion into Austria, every neighbour of Hungary should have tried to shore up their capability to repulse such invasion ASAP.

It would indeed be a logical approach if accomplishing this was easy. HoI 4 is, as it turns out, a fairly complex game with a downright silly number of parameters and possible situations to take into account. The best that can be done is incremental improvements, especially considering game systems are still subject to balancing and minor changes.

And of course, the AI is still work in progress :)
 
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The fact that Daniel can win regularly with WW1 tactics does not bode well.

I am concerned for the experience of HOI4 if the game solely consists of "zerg rushing".

It's a WW2 game, for f***s sake, it's combined armor,artillery,air (navy) that should be winning wars, yet this is the state of the game mere weeks from release? Infantry zerg rush wins you WW2?

Daniel's tactics should have lost him the war over and over. Who balances this?
 
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themunck

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The fact that Daniel can win regularly with WW1 tactics does not bode well.

I am concerned for the experience of HOI4 if the game solely consists of "zerg rushing".

It's a WW2 game, for f***s sake, it's combined armor,artillery,air (navy) that should be winning wars, yet this is the state of the game mere weeks from release? Infantry zerg rush wins you WW2?

Daniel's tactics should have lost him the war over and over. Who balances this?
To be fair, he's attacking other infantry heavy nations with low levels of supply.
 
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Lifthrasil

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It would indeed be a logical approach if accomplishing this was easy. HoI 4 is, as it turns out, a fairly complex game with a downright silly number of parameters and possible situations to take into account. The best that can be done is incremental improvements, especially considering game systems are still subject to balancing and minor changes.

And of course, the AI is still work in progress :)

We know that your job is hard, SteelVolt. I can't even imagine how to programm a good AI, since I am not a programmer.
I think mursolini just (rightfully) pointed out, that your defense ("too good AI is unfun") just was misplaced, since the AI as of now (!) leaves much room for improvement. This defense btw is also constantly used by the guys at TotalWar, when they need to justify why their new AI is still easier to beat than a toddler. So I think that's why this argument leaves a bitter taste in many peoples mouths.

The AI is certainly already better than in HOI3 (kudos btw), but I'm looking forward to you still improving it over the next couple of months, because a dumb AI would ruin this very slick game :-(
 
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To be fair, he's attacking other infantry heavy nations with low levels of supply.
True, but I read somewhere that he does this strategy in nearly every game he played. And this means this tactic is successfull even against countries with armor or more manpower.
A country like Hungary should be very careful how to build it's army, since they don't have that much MP and Infantry is costly here!
 
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Radu

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To be fair, he's attacking other infantry heavy nations with low levels of supply.

Uh... World War 1 was a *whole war* of infantry-heavy fighting and the casualty levels were extremely high and territorial gains extremely low.

Paradox sponsors Extra Credits videos with the explicit intent of "hey, our game is an authentic WW2 experience". How is blitzing with infantry "authentic"?
 
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themunck

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Uh... World War 1 was a *whole war* of infantry-heavy fighting and the casualty levels were extremely high and territorial gains extremely low.

Paradox sponsors Extra Credits videos with the explicit intent of "hey, our game is an authentic WW2 experience". How is blitzing with infantry "authentic"?
WWI armies may have been infantry, but had, youknow, weapons and ammo. China in WWW didn't. Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia weren't too high up with that either.
 
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Lifthrasil

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Uh... World War 1 was a *whole war* of infantry-heavy fighting and the casualty levels were extremely high and territorial gains extremely low.

Paradox sponsors Extra Credits videos with the explicit intent of "hey, our game is an authentic WW2 experience". How is blitzing with infantry "authentic"?

Some German Infantry had little "Blitzes" (flashes) on their uniforms ;-)
 

Radu

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Oh yes, they fought with bare hands! C'mon! No country in the 20th century actually had to worry about running out of machinegun rounds. Look at Greece stalemating Italy on terrain similar to what you find in Austria/Czechoslovakia.

If I wanted utter fantasy, I'd go for Stellaris. This is meant to be WW2, and there's a reason why armies bothered to equip themselves with something other than infantry. This is HOI3-level of incompetence. Infantry waves achieving what modern weapons can.
 
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WWI armies may have been infantry, but had, youknow, weapons and ammo. China in WWW didn't. Austria, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia weren't too high up with that either.

We haven't seen it from an Austrian or Czech perspective, but I guess that all their (starting) divisions were fully equipped, and this also means infinite ammo in HOI4. Daniel used Inf-weapons I in this game, as did the other countries. Infantry weaponry at the beginning of WW2 did not differ that much from weaponry in WW1. Storming entreched Austrian infantry with MG-nests in the Hills and Mountains should have been sheer hell for Hungarian troops with 95% (?) bolt-action rifles...
 
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Asherett

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Keep in mind the latest WWWs have been very early game (1936-7ish), so using WW1 tactics isn't that off. In the big Germany WWW series, it was repeatedly stated that this was an OLD build - and here, Daniel had focused greatly on equipping and training his infantry.

Also, have a look at the difference that single "truck" (Motorized) makes against Chinese infantry in the Japan WWW.

May be a bit early to panic ;)
 
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