WWW, Germany should claim Sudetenland regardless of owner.

[FOARP]

Thanks! I'm still not sure I understand, though.

There are n provinces in the Sudetenland state, for a maximum of n owners. The code needs to check the owner of each province once, collect a list of tags without duplications (equivalently, merge province IDs by common tag) and voila: the list of tags to get a claim on, with appropriate provinces to each claim. And so: what you are telling me, presumably, is that such a series of operations is not possible in the scripting language?

I should have made clear at the outset: I don't know the syntax of the HOI scripting language, so it's actually a completely sincere question on my part. Thanks for any answers.

Of course, even if I get the appropriate claims today in the way described above and a province changes hands tomorrow, before I act on the claim, I've screwed the Sudetenland pooch... (I'd love a frowning emoticon with a tiny mustache for that sentence, but I guess it'd be illegal in Germany .)

All I can say is that the scripting of any HOI game released so far wouldn't be able to handle this. It would require a specific country to be the target. Even with looser scripting, there would only be one country as target. Even with even looser scripting, the event would only fire once.

The problem is with the entire concept of modelling this via statically-scripted events in the first place.

 

[Mandraug]

I see, thanks!

That's a bit disappointing, since it's an embarrassingly simple problem to code in a number of languages, but to me it's still quite awesome that Paradox gives us the ability to script anything in their games and from the little I've seen it can still be used to really cool effect.

 

[Otto of england]

You can target whoever owns the state really easy if Paradox added the right commands (which is easy enough from their perspective)

ex. (This is just to target the country who owns the Sudetenland, I don't feel like writing an entire event for a point)

any_country = {
limit = {
any_owned_state = {
limit = {
state_id = sudentenland
}
}
}

Any events that branch off of this can use from/this/root/prev which makes it easier.

Also I should note the only command that used that does not exist in Hoi3 is any_state and that's because states didn't exist in Hoi3. However similar commands existed for provinces, such as any_owned and I believe EUIV just out right has any_owned_province.

 

[Asdfreak]

I think Germany should press the claim regardless. The only reason they didn't claim south tirol from italy was that Hitler and Mussolini were Dictator buddies, both facist and more or less equal partners. Also Italians were not really categorized as subhumans, unlike every other force in the area except maybe Hungary and Romania(all others were slavs in some way). And you can be sure as hell that the german leadership would NOT have accepted the territory in Hungaries or Romanias hands. The problem with post WW1 borders was that they were largely drawn based on historical borders centuries old and not quite up to the task (Save for the polish territories excluded from germany by popular vote of the inhabitants).
The borders of Czecheslovakia were those of historical Bohemia-Moravia, even though the language border had since shifted in the centuries before, so quite some Germans who had lived there for generations (or Germanized Czechs who had lived there even longer but considered themselves German since generations) suddenly found themselves inside foreign borders. This was a problem that the victors of WW1 were aware of, of course, but they did it anyways to spite germany, the loser, and to strengthen their new allies.

Just think how much sorrow and misery could have been avoided had someone just redrawn the maps based on Cultural belonging instead of stupid historical claims long overtaken by reality. Don't get me wrong, Germany would have started something anyways sooner or later, Germanys real problem was the high number of desilusioned, desperate veterans, highly armed and ready to use violence, and the explosive nature of the society at the time. Just read up on the "lost generation" to know why killing Hitler won't necissarily prevent it all, heck you could have made it worse because competent, not insane people could have tryed what he tryed. But such redrawing would have robbed Hitler of a lot of Momentum and support, and after WW2 would have prevented the massive displacement of Polish people by the SU into the now polish regions where they displaced the germans, had they kept those borders. One can dream. Anyways.

So the reason that Germany claims those regions is to get popular support from the populace as the protector of all germans. Unlike south tirol, Austria and the Sudetenland and Danzig (70% German at the time and annexed by Poland even though it was supposed to be independant) could not be ignored because they were too large, too populus and in the hands of the ENEMY. I can not come up with any scenario in which Germany would accept these Territories in anybodies hands but their own. If Italy takes it, the area will become too large and too historically unjustifiable to let them keep it. If anybody else in Europe takes it, Germany WILL demand it as well. If Austria takes it, they will be Anschlussed anyways.

I don't want to get too deep into the inner political imperatives that mandates them to take it, Lost Generation, Nationalism and the Unification of all German peoples, Protector of Germans yadda yadda.

So yes, Germany should allways try to take it and start hating you for having it if you are not austria

 

[Mandraug]

You can target whoever owns the state really easy if Paradox added the right commands (which is easy enough from their perspective)

ex. (This is just to target the country who owns the Sudetenland, I don't feel like writing an entire event for a point)

any_country = {
limit = {
any_owned_state = {
limit = {
state_id = sudentenland
}
}
}

Any events that branch off of this can use from/this/root/prev which makes it easier.

Also I should note the only command that used that does not exist in Hoi3 is any_state and that's because states didn't exist in Hoi3. However similar commands existed for provinces, such as any_owned and I believe EUIV just out right has any_owned_province.

Thanks, Otto! I would have found it strange if such a thing were not possible in some way. Even if any_state does not exist in HOI4, one could presumably write out any_owned_province for all the n Sudetenland provinces. So long as you can merge claims well for equal values of the tag, you'll create the right number of events (k events, where k is the number of countries that own any Sudetenland provinces, rather than n events, where n is the number of such provinces, which would be annoying)... unless your pseudocode already does that.

 

[scroggin]

I think Germany should press the claim regardless. The only reason they didn't claim south tirol from italy was that Hitler and Mussolini were Dictator buddies, both facist and more or less equal partners. Also Italians were not really categorized as subhumans, unlike every other force in the area except maybe Hungary and Romania(all others were slavs in some way). And you can be sure as hell that the german leadership would NOT have accepted the territory in Hungaries or Romanias hands. The problem with post WW1 borders was that they were largely drawn based on historical borders centuries old and not quite up to the task (Save for the polish territories excluded from germany by popular vote of the inhabitants).
The borders of Czecheslovakia were those of historical Bohemia-Moravia, even though the language border had since shifted in the centuries before, so quite some Germans who had lived there for generations (or Germanized Czechs who had lived there even longer but considered themselves German since generations) suddenly found themselves inside foreign borders. This was a problem that the victors of WW1 were aware of, of course, but they did it anyways to spite germany, the loser, and to strengthen their new allies.

Just think how much sorrow and misery could have been avoided had someone just redrawn the maps based on Cultural belonging instead of stupid historical claims long overtaken by reality. Don't get me wrong, Germany would have started something anyways sooner or later, Germanys real problem was the high number of desilusioned, desperate veterans, highly armed and ready to use violence, and the explosive nature of the society at the time. Just read up on the "lost generation" to know why killing Hitler won't necissarily prevent it all, heck you could have made it worse because competent, not insane people could have tryed what he tryed. But such redrawing would have robbed Hitler of a lot of Momentum and support, and after WW2 would have prevented the massive displacement of Polish people by the SU into the now polish regions where they displaced the germans, had they kept those borders. One can dream. Anyways.

So the reason that Germany claims those regions is to get popular support from the populace as the protector of all germans. Unlike south tirol, Austria and the Sudetenland and Danzig (70% German at the time and annexed by Poland even though it was supposed to be independant) could not be ignored because they were too large, too populus and in the hands of the ENEMY. I can not come up with any scenario in which Germany would accept these Territories in anybodies hands but their own. If Italy takes it, the area will become too large and too historically unjustifiable to let them keep it. If anybody else in Europe takes it, Germany WILL demand it as well. If Austria takes it, they will be Anschlussed anyways.

I don't want to get too deep into the inner political imperatives that mandates them to take it, Lost Generation, Nationalism and the Unification of all German peoples, Protector of Germans yadda yadda.

So yes, Germany should allways try to take it and start hating you for having it if you are not austria

I agree with you. It's unlikely that an evil man like hitler could have gained such strong initial support from the German people if there wasn't some justification for some of his early actions. A mixture of justifiable and unjustifiable actions is far more likely to be supported than purely unjustifiable actions. The secret to the sucess of hitlers early propaganda was that the people sympathised with the belief that Germany had been poorly treated under the treaty of Versailles.

 

[sonicpwr]

I think it should check the owners of the provinces and send an ultimatum to the country unless it is Czechoslovakia, where the UK would instead get to decide. And the same with other events like Danzig or war and Anchluss. The more flexible the scripts are the better.

I understand this probably wont happen for the initial release but it would be a much appreciated addition in some sort of "Ahistorical" DLC.

 

[Otto of england]

Thanks, Otto! I would have found it strange if such a thing were not possible in some way. Even if any_state does not exist in HOI4, one could presumably write out any_owned_province for all the n Sudetenland provinces. So long as you can merge claims well for equal values of the tag, you'll create the right number of events (k events, where k is the number of countries that own any Sudetenland provinces, rather than n events, where n is the number of such provinces, which would be annoying)... unless your pseudocode already does that.

Yes you can do that and it works as well, though it is a longer code. Also the way I understand that Hoi4 works is that only a single country can own a state, though multiple can occupy it. That being said I'm not sure how you would handle the case of someone occupying part of the Sudetenland, I suppose you could just ignore that and have it fire only for the owner, but it would have weird consequences (namely sudden exile of invaders soldiers).

Also the snippet of code I posted only checks for a country that owns the Sudetenland. Any subsequent event firing would have to be added in other parts of the code (I didn't feel like writing that out since that wasn't contested)

 

[potski]

@Otto of england is correct and the earlier posts that the scripting can't handle it wrong. podcat confirmed there are new triggers which allow use of dynamic tags. The fixed tag events of HOI3, which relied on heavily railroaded scenarios, have gone.

Having said that, the scripters starting points will have been the HOI3 events. They just need to adapt these to be more flexible, and put an option in the Sudetenland event which triggers a new series of events to cover the situation if CZE is not the controller of the Sudetenland states, and target the new controller.

By the sound of WWW that would be to add German cores on the states, and then let the AI deal with their claim as it sees fit, rather than railroading into a Munich Agreement affecting Hungary. If Germany has cores then the AI would presumably consider relative strengths in deciding to press it's claim. Hungary is a major power now, so a scripted event which forces it to kow-tow to Germany and hand over Sudetenland would be inappropriate. Germany would have had to fight for it, but Daniel has now joined the Axis, and that's Germany's claim pretty much over.

This use of dynamic tags is going to be a joy for modders.

Also the way I understand that Hoi4 works is that only a single country can own a state, though multiple can occupy it. That being said I'm not sure how you would handle the case of someone occupying part of the Sudetenland,

Only a single country can own or control a state. Some individual provinces can be occupied by someone else during a war, but only one occupies enough to control the state. Otherwise how would the game handle the factories and airbases, AA and synthetic refineries?

So that aspect of the scripting is simple in determining the owners or controllers of the states. No need to consider province occupation.