WWW, Germany should claim Sudetenland regardless of owner.

Invader_Canuck · Apr 21, 2016

Just a little input. I feel like Germany should be able to press their claim on the Sudetenland regardless of who owns it. The claim was not specifically towards the Czechs, it was for the region and the German speakers residing there.

Whether or not Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Yugoslavia or whatever minor in the area controls it, Germany should still press the claim for it.

Would spice up gameplay for human players playing a minor power in the area that may conquer it, and not only would it be historic, it would be even more justifiable for Germany to claim it to protect German speakers. Yea the premise someone else would conquer the Sudetenland is far fetched, but if it happened, it would almost completely justify the German claim.

As an aside, perhaps it is already possible and Germany just chose not to in WWW. If that's the case, awesome

Axe99 · Apr 21, 2016

A big +1 to this - the more events being scripted to cope with sandbox-style play the better

. Note, I recognise I'm not actually scripting the event myself, so understand if it's too painful, at least in time for launch.

Fryslan0109 · Apr 21, 2016

Well they did mention that if Romania is conquered, the USSR would gain cores on the territory that it was historically given. I imagine that the sudetenland focus would do the same thing for Germany (i.e. claims on the territory). Still, would be nice if that would still prompt a conference/treaty even if Czechoslovakia no longer owns the land.

Dalnar · Apr 21, 2016

Considering (to shame of the western powers) Czechoslovakia was not actually part of the "agreemenent", you kinda do not need Czechoslovakia to exist for this event anyway, there can be others that will be left outside the room behind the door while the western powers temble before that austrian corporal . Germany just wants the manpower and industry from german-speaking countries, no matter who holds them atm.

LordOfWar16 · Apr 21, 2016

Dalnar said:
Considering (to shame of the western powers) Czechoslovakia was not actually part of the "agreemenent", you kinda do not need Czechoslovakia to exist for this event anyway, there can be others that will be left outside the room behind the door while the western powers temble before that austrian corporal . Germany just wants the manpower and industry from german-speaking countries, no matter who holds them atm.

agreed. Czechoslovakia had no saying in the negotiations anyway, so i dont see why czechoslovakia would be a requirement for that national focus.

The problem with that of course, is that it isnt really possible for the national focus system to adopt to that. If the targeted country of the focus doesnt exist anymore or doesnt hold the target states, the focus simply doesnt work anymore. It has to target another country, but the focus cant simply dynamicly change the target tag in the files if the state changes owner.

The simple solution they are already working on anyway would be to simply giving germany cores on austria and the sudetenland. If germany wouldnt have gotten them "peacefully" hitler would have taken them one way or another, just as danzig.

Vaximillian · Apr 21, 2016

LordOfWar16 said:
The problem with that of course, is that it isnt really possible for the national focus system to adopt to that. If the targeted country of the focus doesnt exist anymore or doesnt hold the target states, the focus simply doesnt work anymore.

Nothing prevents them from targeting provinces/states/regions/whatever directly instead of countries though.

LordOfWar16 · Apr 21, 2016

Vaximillian said:
Nothing prevents them from targeting provinces/states/regions/whatever directly instead of countries though.

that doesnt work tho since they still have to target a country for the demand. They cant demand territory from nobody, there has to be a target tag. It was the same in HoI III. Simply swapping the owner of the states would make it impossible to reject the demands from germany and would be the worst solution. For a reaction event like for Anschluss of Austria for example you obviously need a event for austria. If Germany demands the Anschluss Austria could join the axis, become part of the greater german reich or refuse in HoI III, which will most likely work the same in HoI IV.

This is how the whole thing looks in HoI III for example. Apperiently i cant color code, but as you can see the reactionary event is aimed at Czechoslovakia (CZE).

Code:

# United Kingdom decides.
country_event = {

    id = 1210
 
    is_triggered_only = yes
 
    title = "EVTNAME1210"
    desc = "EVTDESC1210"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        ai_chance = { factor = 100 }

        name = "EVTOPTA1210"            # Peace in our Time
        neutrality = -5
        relation = { who = GER value = -25 }
        social_conservative = {
            organisation = 25
            popularity = 25
        }

        CZE = { country_event = 1201 }
    }
    option = {

        ai_chance = { factor = 0 }
     
        name = "EVTOPTB1210"            # Oppose Agreement
        USA = { neutrality = 20 }
        AST = { neutrality = 20 }
        CAN = { neutrality = 20 }
        NZL = { neutrality = 20 }
        SAF = { neutrality = 20 }
        national_unity = -20
        threat = { who = all value = 10 }
        FRA = { country_event = 1211 }
        CZE = { join_faction = allies }
    }

}

country_event = {

    id = 1211
 
    is_triggered_only = yes
 
    title = "EVTNAME1211"
    desc = "EVTDESC1211"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1211"            # France will Fight
        neutrality = -10
        national_unity = 10
        relation = { who = CZE value = 20 }
        FRA = {    war = {    target = GER } }
    }

}


# Czechoslovakia - Reaction Event
country_event = {

    id = 1201

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1201"
    desc = "EVTDESC1201"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1201"            # Accept the Claims
        ai_chance = { factor = 100 }
        sudetenland = { secede_province = GER }
        relation = { who = GER value = 10 }
        relation = { who = ENG value = -10 }
        relation = { who = FRA value = -10 }
        dissent = 25
        GER = { country_event = 1202 }
    }
    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTB1201"            # Join the Axis
        join_faction = axis
        relation = { who = GER value = 40 }
        relation = { who = ENG value = -40 }
        relation = { who = FRA value = -40 }
        relation = { who = SOV value = -30 }
        neutrality = -5
        dissent = 25
        head_of_state = 24034
        head_of_government = 24046
        foreign_minister = 24058
        armament_minister = 24070
        minister_of_security = 24087
        minister_of_intelligence = 24104
        chief_of_staff = 24119
        chief_of_army = 24131
        chief_of_navy = 24138
        chief_of_air = 24144
        GER = { country_event = 1203 }
    }
    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTC1201"            # No Way!
        neutrality = 5
        relation = { who = GER value = -50 }
        relation = { who = SOV value = 30 }
        relation = { who = ENG value = -10 }
        relation = { who = FRA value = -10 }
        dissent = 25
        GER = { country_event = 1204 }
    }
}

# Response to Germany - Germany gets the Sudetenland
country_event = {

    id = 1202

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1202"
    desc = "EVTDESC1202"
    picture = "Sudetenland"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1202"            # Ok
        manpower = 300
    }
}

# Response to Germany - Czechoslovakia decides to join the Axis
country_event = {

    id = 1203

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1203"
    desc = "EVTDESC1203"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1203"            # Ok
        relation = { who = CZE value = 100 }
    }
}

# Response to Germany - Czechoslovakia refuses claims
country_event = {

    id = 1204

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1204"
    desc = "EVTDESC1204"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1204"            # We dare not attack them outright
        dissent = 5
    }
    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTB1204"            # What they will not give, we shall take!
        GER = {    war = {
                target = CZE
                attacker_goal = { casus_belli = conquer }
                    }
                }
        relation = { who = FRA value = -10 }
        relation = { who = ENG value = -10 }
        relation = { who = USA value = -7 }
        relation = { who = SOV value = -5 }
        relation = { who = POL value = -5 }
    }
}

Dalnar · Apr 21, 2016

Maybe they could just add alternative focus branch for the Germany after Munich (if it was refused by powers or Czechoslovakia no longer holds them), that would simply declare limited war on whoever holds the lands and capture just them by force.

agus92 · Apr 21, 2016

LordOfWar16 said:

that doesnt work tho since they still have to target a country for the demand. They cant demand territory from nobody, there has to be a target tag. It was the same in HoI III. Simply swapping the owner of the states would make it impossible to reject the demands from germany and would be the worst solution. For a reaction event like for Anschluss of Austria for example you obviously need a event for austria. If Germany demands the Anschluss Austria could join the axis, become part of the greater german reich or refuse in HoI III, which will most likely work the same in HoI IV.

This is how the whole thing looks in HoI III for example. Apperiently i cant color code, but as you can see the reactionary event is aimed at Czechoslovakia (CZE).

Code:

# United Kingdom decides.
country_event = {

    id = 1210

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1210"
    desc = "EVTDESC1210"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        ai_chance = { factor = 100 }

        name = "EVTOPTA1210"            # Peace in our Time
        neutrality = -5
        relation = { who = GER value = -25 }
        social_conservative = {
            organisation = 25
            popularity = 25
        }

        CZE = { country_event = 1201 }
    }
    option = {

        ai_chance = { factor = 0 }
  
        name = "EVTOPTB1210"            # Oppose Agreement
        USA = { neutrality = 20 }
        AST = { neutrality = 20 }
        CAN = { neutrality = 20 }
        NZL = { neutrality = 20 }
        SAF = { neutrality = 20 }
        national_unity = -20
        threat = { who = all value = 10 }
        FRA = { country_event = 1211 }
        CZE = { join_faction = allies }
    }

}

country_event = {

    id = 1211

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1211"
    desc = "EVTDESC1211"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1211"            # France will Fight
        neutrality = -10
        national_unity = 10
        relation = { who = CZE value = 20 }
        FRA = {    war = {    target = GER } }
    }

}


# Czechoslovakia - Reaction Event
country_event = {

    id = 1201

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1201"
    desc = "EVTDESC1201"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1201"            # Accept the Claims
        ai_chance = { factor = 100 }
        sudetenland = { secede_province = GER }
        relation = { who = GER value = 10 }
        relation = { who = ENG value = -10 }
        relation = { who = FRA value = -10 }
        dissent = 25
        GER = { country_event = 1202 }
    }
    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTB1201"            # Join the Axis
        join_faction = axis
        relation = { who = GER value = 40 }
        relation = { who = ENG value = -40 }
        relation = { who = FRA value = -40 }
        relation = { who = SOV value = -30 }
        neutrality = -5
        dissent = 25
        head_of_state = 24034
        head_of_government = 24046
        foreign_minister = 24058
        armament_minister = 24070
        minister_of_security = 24087
        minister_of_intelligence = 24104
        chief_of_staff = 24119
        chief_of_army = 24131
        chief_of_navy = 24138
        chief_of_air = 24144
        GER = { country_event = 1203 }
    }
    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTC1201"            # No Way!
        neutrality = 5
        relation = { who = GER value = -50 }
        relation = { who = SOV value = 30 }
        relation = { who = ENG value = -10 }
        relation = { who = FRA value = -10 }
        dissent = 25
        GER = { country_event = 1204 }
    }
}

# Response to Germany - Germany gets the Sudetenland
country_event = {

    id = 1202

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1202"
    desc = "EVTDESC1202"
    picture = "Sudetenland"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1202"            # Ok
        manpower = 300
    }
}

# Response to Germany - Czechoslovakia decides to join the Axis
country_event = {

    id = 1203

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1203"
    desc = "EVTDESC1203"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1203"            # Ok
        relation = { who = CZE value = 100 }
    }
}

# Response to Germany - Czechoslovakia refuses claims
country_event = {

    id = 1204

    is_triggered_only = yes

    title = "EVTNAME1204"
    desc = "EVTDESC1204"
    picture = "Munich"

    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTA1204"            # We dare not attack them outright
        dissent = 5
    }
    option = {
        name = "EVTOPTB1204"            # What they will not give, we shall take!
        GER = {    war = {
                target = CZE
                attacker_goal = { casus_belli = conquer }
                    }
                }
        relation = { who = FRA value = -10 }
        relation = { who = ENG value = -10 }
        relation = { who = USA value = -7 }
        relation = { who = SOV value = -5 }
        relation = { who = POL value = -5 }
    }
}

Sorry, but it's not a problem to code at all. First you check if CZE is in control of the states. If yes, execute the already implemented code. If not, execute another code with the modifications you desire (allowance to deny claims/wathever).

Not the cleanest solution, granted, but zero problems and it's only adding a few lines of code.

Edit: if CZE controls half the states, execute both codes.

ringhloth · Apr 21, 2016

It's pretty easy. The focuses for Germany to gain control of the Czechs are enabled even if CZE doesn't exist/isn't in control. If they do exist and control the states, then they also get the event to give the states away. If they don't, then Germany just gets the claims that would have come with the land. That said, I'm pretty sure a solution is already on the planning table, as it was mentioned on the stream.

Bennyy · Apr 21, 2016

Whilst this definitely needs fixing, I don't see it as high priority as the only time this will ever happen (realistically) is when a player is playing Hungary, Austria or Poland. Lets be honest the Minor central European AI won't be doing any independent annexing.

So, please add some more flexible Sudetenland scripting when possible, but for now please focus on making the game functional for release

FOARP · Apr 21, 2016

This is really a sandbox versus "historical" (i.e., scripted by events) issue and shows the weakness of handling things through static scripting. As soon as the game goes off-piste, in this case by another country seizing Austria and the Sudetenland, the scripting can't handle it and results in an ahistorical, non-plausible result. A plausible sandbox model would just have German AI seek to annex territory that it has claims on regardless of ownership.

This is why I got so annoyed by the way people kept characterising sandbox as "crazy, random results", like Switzerland joining the Comintern, when in fact that wasn't what people arguing for the sandbox model were talking about.

Bennyy · Apr 21, 2016

Couldn't agree more. Sandbox =/= Ahistorical.

wotertool · Apr 21, 2016

Well, though I agree, I do not agree completely. If Austria gets it's hand on the Czech Lands, Germany shouldn't have a reason to demand it (threatening with war) from Austria, since Austria itself is still considered as a target to get "back to the Empire". Or if you like to have another reason: Main Language in Austria is german too.

Davors72 · Apr 21, 2016

Invader_Canuck said:
Just a little input. I feel like Germany should be able to press their claim on the Sudetenland regardless of who owns it. The claim was not specifically towards the Czechs, it was for the region and the German speakers residing there.

But the claim was dubious to begin with so would they bother contesting it against an allied or ideologically aligned nation? I doubt it. They strike me as being far more rooted in opportunism.

Kevonfor · Apr 21, 2016

Strongly agree. I had a weird feeling watching Daniel annexing Austria & Czechoslovakia without Germany saying anything..

Mandraug · Apr 21, 2016

Is the scripting language really so inflexible that it cannot collect the country tags of the owners of any/all provinces in the Sudentenland state and just use those in the NF/event? Why the need to hard-code the tags?

If desired, an explicit exception for Austria could be coded in, although, if Austria takes Sudetenland, then the separate Anschluss NF should really take care of/supersede this issue.

FOARP · Apr 21, 2016

Mandraug said:
Is the scripting language really so inflexible that it cannot collect the country tags of the owners of any/all provinces in the Sudentenland state and just use those in the NF/event? Why the need to hard-code the tags?

If desired, an explicit exception for Austria could be coded in, although, if Austria takes Sudetenland, then the separate Anschluss NF should really take care of/supersede this issue.

And if the provinces are divided between two different countries? No, static-scripting, even if you broaden out the trigger definitions, cannot account for all circumstances.

Gort11 · Apr 21, 2016

Are we 100% sure the "demand Sudetenland" focus for Germany requires Czechoslovakia to be the owner?

What you're asking for might already be implemented.

Mandraug · Apr 21, 2016

FOARP said:
And if the provinces are divided between two different countries? No, static-scripting, even if you broaden out the trigger definitions, cannot account for all circumstances.

Thanks! I'm still not sure I understand, though.

There are n provinces in the Sudetenland state, for a maximum of n owners. The code needs to check the owner of each province once, collect a list of tags without duplications (equivalently, merge province IDs by common tag) and voila: the list of tags to get a claim on, with appropriate provinces to each claim. And so: what you are telling me, presumably, is that such a series of operations is not possible in the scripting language?

I should have made clear at the outset: I don't know the syntax of the HOI scripting language, so it's actually a completely sincere question on my part. Thanks for any answers.

Of course, even if I get the appropriate claims today in the way described above and a province changes hands tomorrow, before I act on the claim, I've screwed the Sudetenland pooch...

(I'd love a frowning emoticon with a tiny mustache for that sentence, but I guess it'd be illegal in Germany

.)

WWW, Germany should claim Sudetenland regardless of owner.

General

Ships for Victory

Lt. General

Colonel

General

UNKNOWN STRING WANTED

General

Colonel

Colonel

Field Marshal

Second Lieutenant

Field Marshal

Second Lieutenant

Corporal

Captain

Sergeant

Sergeant

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Sergeant