WWW and Austria

[tog34]

I might be making this up but didn't Italy at that time guarantee Austria's independence? So when they go and invade Austria wouldn't Italy at that time back the Austrians up? Also I would think that Hitler wouldn't let that slide and would move in to secure the area from the Hungarians.

 

[Denkt]

I think they have removed most of the historical garantuees (in HOI2 you had countries guaranteeing others from the start) so to allow more aggresive play in the 30s.

 

[tog34]

I think they have removed most of the historical garantuees (in HOI2 you had countries guaranteeing others from the start) so to allow more aggresive play in the 30s.

Yeah well I wish that if you want to go a little crazy like what was done in WWW you should play Sandbox. I feel that Historical should be... Uh Historical lol

 

[Denkt]

The only difference between historical and nonhistorical is how the ai choose its national focuses. It don't effect anything else.

 

[Antless]

There is nothing preventing you from playing historically. This just gives you some head start if you don't choose to play one of the major 7 and don't want to be relegated to a spectator position either. I very much doubt the AI will ever try and do anything like what Daniel did (unlike, say, in EU4).

 

[KalZakath]

The Strategy that Da9l is using will be interesting in the long run. Game's barely begun, and the Tension level is already up around 35-40%. Allies are probably going to be overpowered in mid game, and he's crippled Germany. Italy probably isn't happy either, but then as both of them are Fascist, it will be interesting to see what happens in the long run.

If the game continues, we might see what impact the taking of Austria and Yugoslavia has on Italy. Would be nice if even though they're all of the same ideology that Italy and Germany decide that they want what would have been their cores in those countries from Hungary.

 

[Fenxis]

If the game continues, we might see what impact the taking of Austria and Yugoslavia has on Italy. Would be nice if even though they're all of the same ideology that Italy and Germany decide that they want what would have been their cores in those countries from Hungary.

Agreed. Hungary is much stronger than historically but without the resources from Czechoslovakia we will see a much weaker Germany. Which is to be expected, and will hopefully assuage some of the fears that have been raised by the most recent WWW. So far he's only taken land that was going to go Axis anyways.

 

[Frosted Vert]

Even then it's kind of borked. Why was Germany sending volunteer divisions to a country that had invaded and subjected Volksdeutsche ?

 

[Scutatus]

Even then it's kind of borked. Why was Germany sending volunteer divisions to a country that had invaded and subjected Volksdeutsche ?

Because it is 1936 and even Germany isn't ready for war at this point? Assuming they don't want to kick off a war yet (and historically, they didn't - their build up had barely begun), apart from some harsh language and empty threats, what options do Germany realistically have?

I agree that Germany certainly shouldn't be helping Hungary, but at the same time, without wasting it's relatively poor military strength (at this point) on a war that Hitler has no interest or intention of fighting (it would be disastrous for his plans for the future), what can he do about it?

 

[Frosted Vert]

Hitler has no interest or intention of fighting for his homeland and the people of Greater Germany?

 

[Scutatus]

Hitler has no interest or intention of fighting for his homeland and the people of Greater Germany?

He has no interest or intention of putting Germany into a war it is in no state to fight. Historically Hitler's first build up of military power aimed to have 21 divisions by 1937 (to be increased to 63 divisions only in time of war). He is not even close to that (or shouldn't be) at this point in the game. Germany has only recently abandoned the reparations and restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles and despite all his rhetoric, the jackbooted parades and marches into the Rhineland, it's all a front - Germany is in no condition for an actual war.

Of course Hitler wants Austria - but on his terms when he is ready; in 1936, he's not. He gained it historically by just marching in (after a coup by Austrian Nazis). He can't do that now.

One never knows, the AI might well have Germany declare war in 36/37, but if it does, it could well lose - even if it wasn't up against Daniel! Germany needs to continue to build up it's military strength, considerably, before it can even consider going to war over Austria with any realistic chance of victory.

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

Because it is 1936 and even Germany isn't ready for war at this point? Assuming they don't want to kick off a war yet (and historically, they didn't - their build up had barely begun), apart from some harsh language and empty threats, what options do Germany realistically have?

I agree that Germany certainly shouldn't be helping Hungary, but at the same time, without wasting it's relatively poor military strength (at this point) on a war that Hitler has no interest or intention of fighting (it would be disastrous for his plans for the future), what can he do about it?

If Germany isn't ready for war at this point, then there is no way in hell Hungary should be ready for war. If Hungary started annexing all the countries that Germany had interest in, then there is no way they would sit idly by, and neither would the Allies or the Little Entente, which was still somewhat active at this time.

 

[Drewbdu]

The open belligerence of Hungary to the extent shown in WWW would without a doubt lead to a response from Britain and France in some form or fashion (Hitler's belligerence was at least negotiated peacefully with the Allies, not with all out war), or at least a legitimate coalition would form between Poland and the remaining Eastern European nations to counter the threat of Hungary.

Keep in mind that Hungary is no Germany. France and Britain were afraid of a major war, and Hungarian belligerence would not indicate a second major war in Europe. France and Britain would most likely not declare war because of Hungary's actions, but I'd imagine they'd demand a negotiated settlement to redefine Hungary's borders, or they'd guarantee the independence of Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia, and Austria.

 

[Scutatus]

If Germany isn't ready for war at this point, then there is no way in hell Hungary should be ready for war. If Hungary started annexing all the countries that Germany had interest in, then there is no way they would sit idly by, and neither would the Allies or the Little Entente, which was still somewhat active at this time.

You make a fair point about Hungary - however, Daniel/Hungary have actually deployed/prepared/concentrated for war, with what little he has, while no one else has. He has won his two offensives precisely (and possibly only) because he has massed literally everything he has and stormed it in to unsuspecting countries at peace before they can even mobilise, let alone organise.

While I am sure that Hitler is screaming at the walls about Hungarian upstart peasants, and it's certainly a major setback and blow to his dreams, the AI might just be reflecting that, realistically, intervening is too great a risk at this time. Germany could respond with military action, but to repeat, Hitler sees a bigger picture, he has far reaching ambitions, that go far beyond Austria, as precious as it is to him. Why risk it all on a war now, that at this point would be a hazardous gamble, that could destroy what strength he has and put him back years, when he can continue to build up and then hit Hungary later with great might and far better chances of success? It is entirely appropriate for Germany to NOT go to war against Hungary at this point. Although I would certainly expect them to at some point in the years to come, unless perhaps, Hungary joins the Axis.

Meanwhile the Allies/Entente might technically be in place, but France and Britain are still rather busy avoiding war at this point; (just as they did historically, time and again throughout the thirties despite increasingly blatant aggressive acts by Hitler). France has internal problems and poor unity, Britain has just it's handful of regular divisions, and both are still obsessively trying to avoid a repeat of the horrors of WWI. They aren't going to challenge Hungary with war unless they really cannot avoid it.

So, as far as I am concerned (and it is only my opinion after all), I think any military intervention by either Germany, France or the UK at this point would be... rather incredible. I think the Ai is being really quite realistic and plausible in not having all those countries suddenly rise up in arms.

For now.

 

[Scutatus]

The open belligerence of Hungary to the extent shown in WWW would without a doubt lead to a response from Britain and France in some form or fashion (Hitler's belligerence was at least negotiated peacefully with the Allies, not with all out war), or at least a legitimate coalition would form between Poland and the remaining Eastern European nations to counter the threat of Hungary.

Keep in mind that Hungary is no Germany. France and Britain were afraid of a major war, and Hungarian belligerence would not indicate a second major war in Europe. France and Britain would most likely not declare war because of Hungary's actions, but I'd imagine they'd demand a negotiated settlement to redefine Hungary's borders, or they'd guarantee the independence of Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia, and Austria.

Britain was still war weary from WWI and still doing it's utmost to avoid war. The strength of Hungary really isn't relevant to the will - or lack of - of Britain to declare war at this point. It wasn't going to happen - and, as you say, it shouldn't. Unless there is a player in charge of course. As for diplomatic intervention - the League of Nations was already demonstrating what an impotent beast it really was. Such diplomatic intervention is almost certain to fail - to be a meaningless piece of paper that Hungary simply ignores, because not a nation in the world will want to enforce what the paper says with military might.

I am sure France and Britain will protest most strongly to Hungarian aggression - but then will simply go back to their tea and their coussaints.

 

[Drewbdu]

Britain was still war weary from WWI and still doing it's utmost to avoid war. The strength of Hungary really isn't relevant to the will - or lack of - of Britain to declare war at this point. It wasn't going to happen - and, as you say, it shouldn't. Unless there is a player in charge of course. As for diplomatic intervention - the League of Nations was already demonstrating what an impotent beast it really was. Such diplomatic intervention is almost certain to fail - to be a meaningless piece of paper that Hungary simply ignores, because not a nation in the world will want to enforce what the paper says with military might.

I am sure France and Britain will protest most strongly to Hungarian aggression - but then will simply go back to their tea and their coussaints.

Of course France and Britain would try their utmost to stay out of a war, but Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Romania? An unprovoked Hungarian attack on Austria would lead a fairly divided region to unite against a common foe. Sure, Hungary might keep Austria until Hitler comes knocking, but they would surely be unable to take anything else without threatening an unwinnable war.

 

[Scutatus]

Of course France and Britain would try their utmost to stay out of a war, but Poland, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Romania? An unprovoked Hungarian attack on Austria would lead a fairly divided region to unite against a common foe. Sure, Hungary might keep Austria until Hitler comes knocking, but they would surely be unable to take anything else without threatening an unwinnable war.

I would agree with you to a degree regarding Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia and Romania. As the countries now neighbouring the revived growing Astro-Hungarian empire, and under threat by this aggressor, I would be rather amazed if they did not step up their readiness for war. However, I don't know if they would really form an alliance or simply properly defend themselves as individual states (something neither of the first two victims really had time to do). That will be an interesting development to watch in the game. What ever happens, I do not expect Hungary's next attack to go smoothly, since if nothing else, as you say, the Balkans should be wise to him now.

And Poland! I hadn't even noticed that he now borders Poland! Wow. What a potential THAT opens up!

If matters continue at this rate Austro-Hungary will be the prime Axis Power and enemy of the Allies in World WarTwo, and Germany will just be an also-ran.

Germany cannot respond yet - but it looks like It must soon if it wants to have any chance of realising it's own ambitions. Exciting stuff - watch that space!

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

You make a fair point about Hungary - however, Daniel/Hungary have actually deployed/prepared/concentrated for war, with what little he has, while no one else has. He has won his two offensives precisely (and possibly only) because he has massed literally everything he has and stormed it in to unsuspecting countries at peace before they can even mobilise, let alone organise.

While I am sure that Hitler is screaming at the walls about Hungarian upstart peasants, and it's certainly a major setback and blow to his dreams, the AI might just be reflecting that, realistically, intervening is too great a risk at this time. Germany could respond with military action, but to repeat, Hitler sees a bigger picture, he has far reaching ambitions, that go far beyond Austria, as precious as it is to him. Why risk it all on a war now, that at this point would be a hazardous gamble, that could destroy what strength he has and put him back years, when he can continue to build up and then hit Hungary later with great might and far better chances of success? It is entirely appropriate for Germany to NOT go to war against Hungary at this point. Although I would certainly expect them to at some point in the years to come, unless perhaps, Hungary joins the Axis.

Meanwhile the Allies/Entente might technically be in place, but France and Britain are still rather busy avoiding war at this point; (just as they did historically, time and again throughout the thirties despite increasingly blatant aggressive acts by Hitler). France has internal problems and poor unity, Britain has just it's handful of regular divisions, and both are still obsessively trying to avoid a repeat of the horrors of WWI. They aren't going to challenge Hungary with war unless they really cannot avoid it.

So, as far as I am concerned (and it is only my opinion after all), I think any military intervention by either Germany, France or the UK at this point would be... rather incredible. I think the Ai is being really quite realistic and plausible in not having all those countries suddenly rise up in arms.

For now.

The point that Hungary has been building up under Daniel is irrelevant. Germany had started rebuilding their army even before Hitler came into power, and it underwent massive expansion since Hitler took over. As for the Allies, the circumstances versus Germany were much different. For the most part, Hitler's actions up until his annexation of Czechoslovakia could be seen by many as somewhat justified as uniting Germanic peoples. Germany was also a formidable enemy that was a direct threat to France as had been seen in the First World War, Hungary in 1936, not so much. The Little Entente (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Romania) was also made for exactly this reason. In 1921, when Charles I tried to regain power in Hungary, the Little Entente threatened war. Now image how they would react to Hungary forcefully invading Austria. Now, the Little Entente by this time was obviously nearing its end, but that's because all threat of a renewed Austria-Hungary had mostly subsided, but an action like this would quickly force the alliance back into effect stronger than ever.

 

[Scutatus]

The point that Hungary has been building up under Daniel is irrelevant. Germany had started rebuilding their army even before Hitler came into power, and it underwent massive expansion since Hitler took over. As for the Allies, the circumstances versus Germany were much different. For the most part, Hitler's actions up until his annexation of Czechoslovakia could be seen by many as somewhat justified as uniting Germanic peoples. Germany was also a formidable enemy that was a direct threat to France as had been seen in the First World War, Hungary in 1936, not so much. The Little Entente (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Romania) was also made for exactly this reason. In 1921, when Charles I tried to regain power in Hungary, the Little Entente threatened war. Now image how they would react to Hungary forcefully invading Austria. Now, the Little Entente by this time was obviously nearing its end, but that's because all threat of a renewed Austria-Hungary had mostly subsided, but an action like this would quickly force the alliance back into effect stronger than ever.

In 1936 Germany had only just begun to rebuild beyond the constraints of the Treaty of Versailles and really wasn't ready for war. ( it wasn't even ready in 1939 really, how could it have been in 1936?). It's goal was to have a strength of 21 divisions by 1937 - this was nothing compared to later wartime strengths. However, the game has reached 1938 by the end of the first session (how time flies!) and I agree that Germany really should be doing something militarily by the end of the next session - and surely needs to if it is to be a major player in the war to come.

I disagree about the Allies and the Entente. Words on paper were just that and little more, at least until 1939. As late as 38 Britain was still doing cartwheels trying to avoid war, allowing Czechoslovakia to be abused with the infamous "peace in our time". The AI might surprise us, but I don't think war weary Britain and France will intervene just yet, even with the cause of the Entente to have re-arisen. But I could be wrong. We'll see.

 

[rjohansen]

The Hungary thing was a bit too much. Just drag around your units and "push" along and you crush your enemy in no time. Also, nobody cares. Why didn't the Austrians even try to put up a fight? Why didn't some country come to their aid? Would the world just sit still and let this happen?

I just don't think people really think this is fun, to be able to take over the world, one bit at the time, as a minor. If they do however... Perhaps in a non-historical game, but should not be able to in an historical game.

If I decide to play a minor, I also expect to be a minor and play a minor role in the war.