WWII is a three- sided war and should be possble to Axis to turn the allies SU

[geogus]

Hi guys, the way I see it the WWII could be treated like a 3 sided war, each alliance figthing for itself.

Its true, the allies and the commitern fought together, but they acted toghter because of a common foe, not because they shared their viewpoints.

This is true and the fact that after WWII ended the allies and the Sovets sçmost engaged in another war proves it.

And if the cold war turned hot, I bet it would be called WWIII, a continuation of WWII. (the same way it is said WWII continues WWI)

So I think it should be possible for the Axis to be able to turn the allies against SU, in special if the soviets are rushing towards western Europe.

Once I played a game (In DH) that the allies hadnt launched torch and D-Day and Soviets had captured all the germany, italy, occupied France, Romania, Bulgaria, former yugoslavian estates, Sloaviakia and Greece and created their socialisty versions.

For sure, I cant see something like that happening and the the allies doing nothing.

Methinks that before the SU establishs an socialist europe the allies would join the Axis to figth it (in especial considering that the all holocaust thing is not a part of the game, thank god and the devs)

In the later years of the war the german diplomacy tried to turn the allies against the soviets or at least agree in a ceasefire and this was all the point of the Bulge offensive.

So if the Germans tried it and even launched an offensive pushing this goal, I think it should be possible for the players to try to go for it

 

[Limith]

No

 

[EmperorTojo]

Well, this was something Himmler tried to achieve during the very end.. But there was probably no way the Allies would have accepted a peace deal (Some also seem to think the Allies would have made peace with the Axis if battle of the bulge/Ardennes Offensive had been successful.. Why would they?) Anyway, I do see it being possible if the Soviet Union goes on a war rampage while Germany is acting like a pacifist. Then it would be a world war with Soviets as the antagonists. Untill the annextion of Czechoslovakia, Communism was viewed as the worse threat. During the Spanish civil war most governments in the west supported the nationalists, because they viewed them as a better alternative to the communists who were getting increasingly larger influence.

 

[geogus]

The Way the war runned in real life the allies wouldnt sign the peace treaty, but if things had gone diferent, who knows.

Lets says bulge is sucessful, Germany captures Antwerp, destroys the American pocket and starts to push the allies towards france atlantic coast.

Meanwhile Soviet Union advances, Berlin is close to fall and after that nothing will stop the soviets to capute all germay, North Italy (until gothic line) France, the balkans, greece and everything else is there to grabed.....

In that case scenario, who knows ( granted im not considerign The holocaust and german crimesm that might affect the allied decision)

 

[Dan1109]

Cold War turning hot, being called WWIII? Brilliant idea, run to copyright office! Were you born after the Cold War by chance?

Now, if you model the game such that Germany never DoWs, and USSR DoWs Germany when USSR is stronger, heh, that could be interesting. Could even make japan partners with USSR to make it a true global challenge, well just a perm non-aggression pact atleast. Heh, the allies are invading Europe, to liberate Berlin...ha!

Democracies usually have sympathy for the county being attacked. But I can't see the allies having a treaty guaranteeing sovereignty of Germany, unless hitler never came to power in '33. Without the 'buildup' of war anxiety by Germany, what would have happened if USSR attacked Poland outright? No allied guarantee (a non-hitler Germany would have behaved itself). USSR takes Poland. Would allies have then guaranteed a democratic non-hitler Germany (and also blaming themselves for making Germany too weak due to the treaty of Versailles). Then USSR attacks Germany. Would, allies still care at that point? Their ideology isn't being threatened. But if USSR goes further west then of course we can have USSR vs Allies in the early 40s.

But germany would be about as useful as Poland, just sprouting up underground cells...

Dunno, wouldn't be surprised if this was allowed in some of the pre-36 HOI3 mods. But honestly, it all requires hitler not ruling Germany IMO to be interesting. Else, a hitler Germany is defeated by the time the Allies determine USSR to truly be the greater threat (and USSR of course continues to DoW Democratic nations).

 

[EmperorTojo]

If the Soviet Union moved against Poland, the entire world would turn on them pretty quickly. Germany would definitely had been guaranteed and all that. The red scare was pretty large this time period.

 

[ingwe]

I definitely think that in HOI4, whoever is the most aggressive (communists or fascists) should get DOWed by the allies if for no other reason than to make things interesting. That seems plausible enough anyway.

 

[vonhavoc]

If the Soviet Union moved against Poland, the entire world would turn on them pretty quickly. Germany would definitely had been guaranteed and all that. The red scare was pretty large this time period.

Like the whole world turned on the Soviet Union when it annexed the Baltic states and attacked Finland. Or maybe not.

 

[ingwe]

Like the whole world turned on the Soviet Union when it annexed the Baltic states and attacked Finland. Or maybe not.

I would argue it was because Germany was being just as aggressive and was a lot closer. If Germany didn't go for Czechoslovakia, I think it is plausible that the UK and/or France might have helped Finland.

 

[keynes2.0]

The Way the war runned in real life the allies wouldnt sign the peace treaty, but if things had gone diferent, who knows.

Lets says bulge is sucessful, Germany captures Antwerp, destroys the American pocket and starts to push the allies towards france atlantic coast.

Meanwhile Soviet Union advances, Berlin is close to fall and after that nothing will stop the soviets to capute all germay, North Italy (until gothic line) France, the balkans, greece and everything else is there to grabed.....

In that case scenario, who knows ( granted im not considerign The holocaust and german crimesm that might affect the allied decision)

Okay so Germany's offensive goes fantastically and all five western divisions are wiped out. That leaves the western powers with 85 well equiped divisions in France alone, 30 of them in very near proximity. They have more then four million troops left in France while the Germans would be lucky to muster one third that number with troops of any quality.

The battle of the bulge was a desperate man and military grasping at straws in the face of overwhelming defeat.

In 1936 I can imagine Soviets and West ending up as enemies. Britain even saw the Soviets as enemies for a while after Poland and Finland. But by 1944 there was no way they would let Germany off the hook.

 

[vonhavoc]

I would argue it was because Germany was being just as aggressive and was a lot closer. If Germany didn't go for Czechoslovakia, I think it is plausible that the UK and/or France might have helped Finland.

That is pretty obvious, just saying that it shows the decisions made by UK were not slam dunk defend the democracy and/or freedom. Who knows, they might have chickened out if Germany would not help them against SU even if Poland would be taken by SU.

 

[EmperorTojo]

I would argue it was because Germany was being just as aggressive and was a lot closer. If Germany didn't go for Czechoslovakia, I think it is plausible that the UK and/or France might have helped Finland.

Quite true, and the allies were already planning to send aid to Finland when it was invaded by the Soviet Union... I think Norwegian refusal to cooperate properly with Britain stopped them from doing so though. And the baltic states were 'annexed' peacefully with 'elections' that were probably rigged, but still wasn't any type of aggression of their part.

 

[George Parr]

I'd say it had more to do with Britain and France being too afraid to go to war with the Soviets while already being at war with Germany. Not only would that have led to a war in which they had to face two armies with lots of manpower, but it could also have pushed Germany and the Soviet Union closer together. While those two may have been more or less allied at that point, they were still opposing idealogies that couldn't really stand each other, so there was at least a chance for things to turn sour. A declaration of war against the Soviets probably would have prevented a Barbarossa-style campaign for the time being, and would have guaranteed that Germany couldn't be forced into a peace through blockade.

All in all, a declaration of war against the Soviet Union was at least as justified as one against Germany. Invasion of Poland, war against Finland, illegaly annexing the Baltic states, taking Bessarabia from Romania, the Soviet Union was every bit the warmonger Germany was. Taking on both Germany and the Soviet Union at the same time would have been the same mistake as Germany made a bit later on though, facing too many powerful nations at once, so it is somewhat understandable that the Allies weren't really fond of that idea.

 

[Mannstien]

Or what if the Germans made some back room deals with Allies to keep Danzig and parts of west Prussia in return for independence of Poland and Cechs, peace, and helping tackle the Great bear.

 

[Secret Master]

This could happen in HOI3, without the need for German super-diplomacy. I'm not sure why people seem to think the Allies and COMINTERN will 100% of the time be chums in HOI.

In both TFH and FTM, the British AI will DOW the Soviet Union if their threat exceeds certain parameters as long as Britain is not already at war with the Axis. Without going into details, the rule of thumb is that Russia gets one free DOW and puppet/annex in Eastern Europe or Scandinavia before the big one breaks out in Poland. More than that, and you go over the threat threshold and the British come after you.

Maximum fun is going over the threshold as the Soviets after First Vienna Award. The British DOW you, then later the Germans attack Poland, starting a war with the Allies, and then in 1941, Germany may pick a fight with you. Now that's a true three sided conflict, and it's a lot of fun. Soviet submarines convoy raiding in the Med... it's a like a buffet of targets.

 

[keynes2.0]

Or what if the Germans made some back room deals with Allies to keep Danzig and parts of west Prussia in return for independence of Poland and Cechs, peace, and helping tackle the Great bear.

Under what conditions do you think the Germans would offer it which would not entail the Allies being on the brink of victory and in no mood to negotiate?

 

[Dalwin]

I don't think it is unreasonable to envision the three sides lining up differently under the right circumstances. Historically it was the Axis against the others becasue a) they were the agressors and b) they were perceived as the biggest threat. Both those things would have to change before there is any realistic possibility of a major realignment.

All arguments about ideology can be set aside, leaders of major powers were often very pragmatic. The very fact that the West aligned with the Soviets is proof of that.

 

[keynes2.0]

The west was only ideological enemies with the Soviets insofar as they saw them as a danger. The German ideology necessitated war that threatened the West in an existential fashion. The Cold War showed that the West and Soviets didn't need to outright annihilate each other in total war even when they repeatedly fought.

 

[Dalwin]

The west was only ideological enemies with the Soviets insofar as they saw them as a danger. The German ideology necessitated war that threatened the West in an existential fashion. The Cold War showed that the West and Soviets didn't need to outright annihilate each other in total war even when they repeatedly fought.

I think that agrees with part B of my statement involving perceived threat. It is my opinion that the Cold War only stayed cold because of MADD. Nobody was willing to risk the nukes.

 

[keynes2.0]

MAD didn't really kick in until the late 50s early 60s when the numbers of nukes got up there. They had plenty of time to fight a total war if they were willing to sustain casaulties on the WWII level again.