As far as I understand, they're a major now that PDX has had extra time.
Also this:
WWII China really a minor?
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Also this:
I can't blame the devs for not making China a major power. Italy is going to be more played than China would have been considering that their customerbase is almost only western customers.
There will likely be DLCs in the future for the secondary powers.
There will likely be DLCs in the future for the secondary powers.
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All majors focus tree have stuff that will effect the direction of the game such as ability to claim stuff, this is not in the generic tree so the majors are supposed to dictate the direction of the game not the minors.
Look, I bet China just needs to eat Manchuria back from Japan to be qualified as a major. They said that the "Major" and "Minor" listing in-game is dynamic. Minors can rise up to Major status, and Majors can drop status.
As for national focusi, I imagine making those trees are fairly difficult because you have to code them to effects and events, you have to have historically accurate descriptions, and you have to have historically plausible alternate history. The alternate history will be the hardest, because it has to be plausible and intelligible, yet also alternate enough to be fun.
They also said that Italy being a major was a bug....at least Daniel said that.
As for national focusi, I imagine making those trees are fairly difficult because you have to code them to effects and events, you have to have historically accurate descriptions, and you have to have historically plausible alternate history. The alternate history will be the hardest, because it has to be plausible and intelligible, yet also alternate enough to be fun.
They also said that Italy being a major was a bug....at least Daniel said that.
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Don't worry. I bet future DLC about minor nation, or Asia will fix it in some way.
Ofc I don't appreciate this way...
Ofc I don't appreciate this way...
All of the majors have power projection capabilities and meaningful industries. China's industry is closer to some of the larger minor countries, didn't produce tanks or aircraft to my knowledge and had no significant naval capabilities (gunboats and a handful of cruisers). The armour it did have was very modest in number, coming from pre-war purchases and foreign military aid after the war started. The air forces it did have were similarly foreign sourced except for one or two prototypes.
China was bogged down in a civil war, and the only way it was in the period capable of influencing the war was on account of it being attacked by Japan - it was not at the time in a position to act on the offensive if Japan had not attacked. China is not unimportant, but under the terms of the HoI series its industry, technological sophistication, and ability to act on the initiative do not match what the "majors" have. In terms of being fleshed out, it is an extremely obvious candidate for early DLC that will give it unique mechanics and focus trees and so on.
China was bogged down in a civil war, and the only way it was in the period capable of influencing the war was on account of it being attacked by Japan - it was not at the time in a position to act on the offensive if Japan had not attacked. China is not unimportant, but under the terms of the HoI series its industry, technological sophistication, and ability to act on the initiative do not match what the "majors" have. In terms of being fleshed out, it is an extremely obvious candidate for early DLC that will give it unique mechanics and focus trees and so on.
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That was a joke!
Guys, this is simple. There are seven countries which had highly developed industry, technical research and access to resources, and had great international influence. China wasn't one of them in 1936, but has the potential to become a major power. The first thing blocking China is factionalism and civil war, that had been plaguing the country since 1911.
The country was also impoverished by the series of wars with the major powers starting in 1839 with the First Opium War - every defeat (and there were many) cost it huge amounts of silver in reparations. And suffered from the Unequal Treaties imposed on it as a result of those wars where most foreign trade was being carried out by the major powers from the Treaty Ports through the international settlements. Plus they had lost ownership of or influence over Vladivostok and Outer Manchuria, Manchuria, Korea, Mongolia, North Vietnam, Dalian, Hong Kong, Weiheiwei, Macau and Guangzhouwan, during what became known as the "Century of Humiliation".
China had the capability to field very large armies, but was inward looking, and had no navy. It was primarily the reason it suffered so many defeats to the major powers - it was incapable of preventing them from sailing into their ports and bombarding them, landing amphibious invasions, or sinking ships carrying Chinese trade goods. In fact, you could almost define a major power as one with a substantial navy. Not only because of the ability to defend themselves and project their power overseas, but because of the cost and huge technical challenges of building capital ships. China had invested alot of money trying to buy a navy in the 1880s, but the next war they ended up in their fleet was destroyed.
However, in HOI3 terms the seven majors could easily be identified because they had more than 100 IC. China didn't. It was wrong to suggest this measure had no relevance - some of the AI scripts used this factor specifically to decide what actions a country should carry out. Majors built more special forces, planes and ships for instance.
It was a simple objective assessment of their industrial capability. Nothing to do with their contribution to the war, no indication of their fighting spirit or quality of their equipment, or leadership. And it's not a chicken/egg situation. They are not "major" because they have NF trees, they have trees because in 1936 they are majors.
France and Italy are major powers because they have far more industry than Poland, Sweden, China, etc. And that gives them the capability to produce battleships etc. Poland for instance could barely produce subs by 1939. France and Italy have colonies with resources and significant MP. And while the imperial powers of the Victorian era were in decline, France and Italy hadn't declined to the level say of Spain, which had lost nearly all of it's colonies and wealth by 1936.
China, Sweden, Poland, the Netherlands etc might be regarded as in a second tier of countries - if played very well, then there is a chance of making them into new major powers, leading their own factions and challenging the old majors.
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I think the "major/minor" system isn't so much a matter of their "importance" in the war as it is a matter of how much their decisions contribute to the course of the war, and therefore how many railroady events/decisions need to be coded for them. Germany needs to be strongly encouraged to go on a conquering spree- otherwise, where is your game? Britain and France need to be encouraged to guarantee the nations Germany is threatening and (eventually) honor such guarantees, or, again, you don't have a recognizable World War Two. Japan should be actively trying to expand into Asia; the U.S.S.R. should be expanding into eastern Europe; America should be supplying the allies and embargoing Japan. China, by contrast (not to disparage the blood that its people shed fighting against the Axis) was much more reactive- it doesn't need any foreign policy railroading at all (Japan is the one that starts everything), it just needs to be balanced so as to neither easily fall completely to the Japanese, nor to easily defeat them, and the war will progress on schedule for the rest of the world.
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France can project power abroad. France has an empire. France has a formidable navy. France has a sizable industrial base. France isn't limited tactically to fielding a predominantly infantry-based army. A significant amount of French people will actually buy and play Hearts of Iron 4.
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It is two fold first china is quite weak before it unifies and their lack of navy or air force. I personally would love to see an unique China focus tree for nationalist and communist china.
Make one
Focus trees are similar to EU4: the hard part is making them, researching everything related to a country and have all the stats changes in there. Post that on forum, tag half of Pdx in post and most likely will make it's way into the game
It is pointless to complain about not having a focus tree, when you still have 1 month+ to create one and have a chance to make it into release!!! I'm sure if you create full tree for Nat & com. China by early-mid May some programmer might just add it to the game as reward
Also if not there at release can easily be modded into the game at that point
Italy too.
About China, as others said, it is not a major because of its industry and it is landlocked too. Yes China is a landlocked country ! Becase its neighbour, Japan, controls so much the seas China can't even imagine building ships and project its power in the ocean during the first years. Anyway, in HoI 3 it was very easy to build a sizeable navy by 1944. In my last China game, I'm now in 1947, I had 4 carrier tasks force, and 4 fleets of cruisers + heavy cruisers. That's far better than what China did historically.
There's in my mind nothing to be worried of. In HoI 3 China was clearly overbuffed compared to what the country did in the second world war : you could end the sino japanese war in 1937 while seizing some territory and then declare once more war in let's say 1939 and take whole Mandchuria and Korea. And all this while building a strong navy. A united China got more leadership than France and Italy combined. Which is clearly not relevant in the timeframe. So don't fear too much that "urr durrr Italy and France sucks but my China rocks urr durr that's horrible I don't want these countries to do anything but I want mine to invade the United States for some oil in Alaska leading to nuclear war !". It won't happen. China will most likely be as strong as it was in previous games.
As a Chinese I feel sad not having my motherland as a Major at game release, the feeling is true.
Yet come to analyze about it, China was quite weak at that time and not even unified and have little impact on other theaters of war.
The most industrial-developed region in China in game period is Taiyuan of Jin and Northeastern China (Manchuria), they could even build tanks and fighters there (French FT-17 and Soviet I-15). Sadly in 1931 the Manchuria Garrison troops received a Full-Retreat order from Chiang and thus abandoned Manchuria to Japan and continued their effort to "Kill the Red". After that we all know what China looked like at 1936.
China DID stall IJA a lot which made the Pacific War a lot easier for USMC. But even they didn't IJA would never be able to defeat USA by all means. Hell even USA blew out all their ships themselves the IJA still cant land in USA or Australia, the pops difference were just too big to fill not to mention Army technology gap.
Maybe we will see a new Cival war system in DLCs and then China (at least CHI and CHC ) will become Majors
Yet come to analyze about it, China was quite weak at that time and not even unified and have little impact on other theaters of war.
The most industrial-developed region in China in game period is Taiyuan of Jin and Northeastern China (Manchuria), they could even build tanks and fighters there (French FT-17 and Soviet I-15). Sadly in 1931 the Manchuria Garrison troops received a Full-Retreat order from Chiang and thus abandoned Manchuria to Japan and continued their effort to "Kill the Red". After that we all know what China looked like at 1936.
China DID stall IJA a lot which made the Pacific War a lot easier for USMC. But even they didn't IJA would never be able to defeat USA by all means. Hell even USA blew out all their ships themselves the IJA still cant land in USA or Australia, the pops difference were just too big to fill not to mention Army technology gap.
Maybe we will see a new Cival war system in DLCs and then China (at least CHI and CHC ) will become Majors
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There could be some debate whether Italy should be considered a major. Then again, Italy is one of the most fun nations to play, so it's perfect as it is.
Nat. China wasn't even able to defeat a bunch of peasants after WW2 despite the US help.
Nat. China wasn't even able to defeat a bunch of peasants after WW2 despite the US help.
Why?
Italy had a modern fleet, colonies, airforce, large industry, ability to produce war materials. China was backwards country with warlords ruling most of the country. She had no war industry, zero power projection, and no fleet or airforce to speak of.
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Do we have to get into this?
Nat. China lost to communists in the civil war because it spent all of its resources and manpower fighting the Japanese invasion, virtually by itself until 1941, and then received a staggering 1% of total land-lease distributed by the US, which most of that went to supporting the AVG in China, and not to China itself. US aid was important but extremely limited.
Look up the long list of casualties of the Nationalist Revolutionary Army. Most of the good people were lost in the war, and China was operating on only 10% of its pre-war tax base and industry between 1938-1945. Corruption had become rampant and inflation was out of control, only because of these losses of manpower and resources. By 1938 most of the educated populace of China was under Japanese occupation, China would have to fight on for 7 more years with.. not the most educated people at their disposal. It's obvious that the Nationalist government and army was a hollow shell by 1945, considering the blood spent.
Didn't help that the British got the best of China's troops wiped out in 1942 with their disastrous "defense" of Burma, because they refused to listen to the experts when fighting Japan (Chinese officers + Chiang Kai-Shek) due to some racist attitudes. These troops were cherry picked, the cream of the crop, from a country that was sorely lacking everything from equipment, training, education. That certainly didn't help things in the Chinese front, thanks Britain, nor did it help the Nationalists win the civil war afterwards.
All the good people died in the war, should be obvious. Nationalist government of 1936 was not the same as of 1944.
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China was a minor in terms of resource (and all industrial) production. It had a large army but, being poorly led and capitalised, that army had quite little value and was being defeated by smaller Japanese forces as late as Winter 1944. China had next to no involvement at all in the decisive naval and air theatres in which Japan lost the war. Ultimately China was peripheral to the outcome of the Pacific War; it consumed some Japanese resources, but the resource imbalance between Japan and the US was so large that the decisive defeat of Japan at sea and in the air would have happened anyway.
In commercial terms, China is a minor market for the game because the game's failure to whitewash history will likely get it banned. People ask why France is a major and that is in part because France is a large market which will actually buy the game and pay the royalties to Paradox.
In commercial terms, China is a minor market for the game because the game's failure to whitewash history will likely get it banned. People ask why France is a major and that is in part because France is a large market which will actually buy the game and pay the royalties to Paradox.
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Plus that Communist power was quite strong in 1945, not like some regular "revolters".
Still, KMT received more support overseas and had more men and better equipments, even Soviet granted more to KMT than to Communist side because no of them believe CHC would actually win the Civil War.
However according to memos, diaries and later defection lots of key position in KMT leadership were Communist spies or just opportunists....It's like playing pokers with hand revealed. In some cases Mao could obtain Operation plans even before Chiang did...
As you mentioned that KMT lost lots of good men to fight off Japanese invasion, so did CHC.
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