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Munin

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I m wondering if we d have to see nationalist china really as a minor? This would be the only nation i would doubt considering its size and vast ammount of resources & manpower.

Or is China just the major they didn t recognize for game dev time reasons?
 
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They just weren't important enough to motivate them being among the top 7 nations I guess.

"Not important enough" sounds like "Hey chinese people, the lives of millions of dead countrymen are actually worth nothing and had actually no significant inmfluence in the war"
This is wrong from a rational historical standpoint -> the chinese tied up a shitload of japanese soldiers+equipment in china
And it is a catastrophy from a moral standpoint...

So, maybe they are portrayed as a minor in the game but pay some respect dude
 
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Victor Cortez

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They just weren't important enough to motivate them being among the top 7 nations I guess.
"Not important enough" sounds like "Hey chinese people, the lives of millions of dead countrymen are actually worth nothing and had actually no significant inmfluence in the war"

Breaking news: words mean what they mean, not what you might think they could potentially mean.

The meaning of "weren't important enough" is probably much closer to "weren't important enough" rather than "Hey chinese people, the lives of millions of dead countrymen are actually worth nothing and had actually no significant inmfluence in the war"

Devs have to make choices and they probably came to the conclusion that China is less important than France from a gameplay point of view.
You might disagree with that, but don't go looking for lack of respect when respect is not really the point.
 
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Another of the threads where someone thinks that paradox can make subjective judgements on their own, and slap on or withhold the appellation ‘major’ at their whim. In the same way as the Wall of China is great and the Roman Empire is holy, it’s the consensus of history which decides such things and it isn’t open to further negotiation. I’ve seen people say Italy ‘shouldn’t be a major’ because they underperformed, and so on. The majors are the majors because that’s the way it is, while this-is-a-very-important-country, or this-is-the-country-I-was-born-in, are not.
 
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I m wondering if we d have to see nationalist china really as a minor? This would be the only nation i would doubt considering its size and vast ammount of resources & manpower.

Or is China just the major they didn t recognize for game dev time reasons?

China lacks the ability to project their power outside of their own country within the timeframe of WW2. All of the other majors have a chance to seriously impact the surrounding world. The only thing China can do is either resist Japan's attack or fall to it.
(Amazing players will be able to make them do much more, but amazing players could make any country to much more).

There is no point investing all of the time and money in developing a country that has no importance outside of its own sphere. If the game ends up getting extended into the communist era then there is much more justification for China being considered a major.

But in WW2 their entire role could be summarized as 'distract Japan'
 
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Linx MP

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The issue here is that HoI4 has a two tier system. The 7 majors en everyone else. There is no issue with playability or importance. The 7 majors have a unique focus tree from the start and we can expect to see a lot more of those in future expansions maybe even patches.
 
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The 7 majors are only for the start of the game, you know. Every nation can become a major nation during the game, just like in Victoria 2 for example.

Yes, china was big and had alot of resources and manpower, but also has a very weak industrial base and they were barely industrialized and histoically they were pushed around by the western powers. Just as Japan pre-industrialization china was basicly forced to trade with the western powers and even forced to give up ports to those. Portugal, Germany (pre-ww1), UK and France all had ports in china without fighting for it.

The Chinese gouverment also had huge problems with the different chinese warlords and cliques and massive internal struggles, kinda like the shogunat and daiymo in japan before the unification. Then there was of course the internal conflict of nationalists vs communists.
 
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I m wondering if we d have to see nationalist china really as a minor? This would be the only nation i would doubt considering its size and vast ammount of resources & manpower.

Or is China just the major they didn t recognize for game dev time reasons?
Yes, China is a minor in the 1930's. China has almost limitless manpower, but very little industry, and to not to put a too fine point on it, it was a technological backwater. Of course, logistics was extremely difficult, and China was huge, so Japan with their fairly limited army had absolutely no hope of taking it all. On top of that, China was anything but unified, there were numerous "strong men" who each had their own idea of what to do.

Only with the communist revolution post WW2 did the Chinese nation unify and begin to built itself up to "modern standards".
 
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It was stated that minors can get the label "major" if they meet certain requirements. And thats really all what it is, a label.

The only way how it effects gameplay is with the Fascist CB, where you can just declare war on every nation if you are at war with a major. And I'm sure we don't want that Japan is able to attack everyone as they wish in 1936, do we?
 
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"Not important enough" sounds like "Hey chinese people, the lives of millions of dead countrymen are actually worth nothing and had actually no significant inmfluence in the war"
This is wrong from a rational historical standpoint -> the chinese tied up a shitload of japanese soldiers+equipment in china
And it is a catastrophy from a moral standpoint...

So, maybe they are portrayed as a minor in the game but pay some respect dude
Take your moral outrage somewhere else. the Chinese theater was largely irrelevant to the rest of the war. And where would those Japanese troops gone the would have been useful? Oh that's right they would have gone to southeast Asia where needing more troops wasn't an issue and they just would have got cut off from supply later anyway.
 
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Industry, one of the absolutely most essential thing for warfare since the dawn of the 20th century,mChina had very little of. They were large, yes, and had a near endless supply of manpower, yes, but they were poor and industrially ultra-backwards.
 
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Guys, "Major" and "Minor" only determine whether or not Paradox is creating separate focus trees for the countries at launch, or whether they will use the generic focus tree.

That's it. Nothing about national importance, sacrifices made by their people, or anything of that sort. Only whether the shape of the game requires them to have a specifically crafted set of foci to keep things on track/give the player options. Since historically China was mostly reacting to Japan, that conflict happens through the Japanese tree (to avoid oddities where e.g. the Chinese player chooses the "befriend Japan" path and Japan chooses the "Second Sino-Japanese War" path). Note that there are confirmed to be special events for China (e.g. the Chinese Civil War), they just haven't scripted out an entire focus tree (which would have to be tested, balanced, and made to interact with other focus trees). Especially given the delays the game has already gone through, that seems eminently reasonable.

Note that the generic focus tree includes most of the things you'd want from a Chinese focus tree (extra industry, military development, choices of alignment, etc.). So it's not like China is unplayable.
 
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Take your moral outrage somewhere else. the Chinese theater was largely irrelevant to the rest of the war. And where would those Japanese troops gone the would have been useful? Oh that's right they would have gone to southeast Asia where needing more troops wasn't an issue and they just would have got cut off from supply later anyway.

That's false.

A lot of supplies went into the Chinese theater that could have been used elsewhere, Japan had little industry, just like in the www, daniel spent a lot of resources on the Chinese front.

I could go on, but it should be obvious to everyone that if China capitulated and Japan no longer had to maintain a war in China, and got all those resources, the dynamic in the pacific would change immensely.

Japan went to war with the United States because of the war in China.

I posted this elsewhere, but the following stats cost Japan resources, money, time, energy and lastly led to the confrontation between Japan and the West.


...

In 1937, at Shanghai, there was a 3 month battle. The Chinese state (KMT) had 700,000 soldiers, 250 airplanes and 16 tanks involved in this battle. The opposing Japanese had 300,000 soldiers, 3000 airplanes, 300 tanks, and 130 naval ships. At the end of the battle, KMT forces suffered 283,500 casualties, while Japan suffered only 92,640.

Fast-forward to March 1938, Japanese forces tried to encircle Nationalist forces at Xuzhou. 600,000 Chinese state forces fought against 240,000 Japanese troops. Chinese forces managed a breakthrough and escaped intact, suffering 100,000 casualties, vs 30,000 Japanese casualties.
Look at the Battle of Tai'erzhuang (1938), where the Chinese government won a decisive victory against Japan. In this battle Chinese government forces were 400,000 versus 70,000 Japanese troops.

In June 1938, a 4 month battle began as the Japanese attempted to crush the Chinese government at the battle of Wuhan. During this battle, the Chinese government forces numbered 1,100,000 troops, 300 planes, and 50 ships, versus 350,000 Japanese troops, 500 planes, and 120 ships. Chinese forces lost 400,000 from casualties, while Japan lost 140,000.

Battle of Changsha (1939), Chinese government forces numbering 240,000 defeated a Japanese force attempting to capture the city, numbering 100,000. Chinese government forces suffered 40,000 casualties, Japanese forces suffered 40,000+ casualties.

Battle of South Guangxi (1939-1940) 150,000 Chinese government forces defeated 100,000 Japanese troops.

1939–40 Winter Offensive, Chinese Nationalist forces launch a full scale offensive against Japanese occupation forces. The Nationalist Army attacks with 550,000 troops, against 850,000 Japanese troops. This is a Nationalist defeat.

Battle of Changsha (1941) - 110,000 Chinese troops defeat 120,000 Japanese troops, attempting to capture Changsha, a second time. These are government troops, fighting a centralized war effort.

Battle of Changsha (1942) - 300,000 Chinese troops defeat 120,000 Japanese troops, again. This time the Japanese lose all 600 pieces of artillery they brought with them, and suffer 56,746 casualties. The Chinese suffer only 28,116 casualties. The third attempt to capture Changsha is a failure.

China's government sends two armies to Burma to help the British defend against Japan (1942). Britain loses Burma. These two armies are virtually destroyed.

Battle of Northern Burma and Western Yunnan (1943-1945) 400,000 Chinese troops fight 150,000 Japanese and Thai troops, to recapture Northern Burma and Western Yunnan. Allied victory.

Battle of Changde (1943) 210,000 Chinese troops defeat 100,000 Japanese troops attempted to capture Changde. Japanese forces suffer 40,000 casualties. China suffers 60,000 casualties.

Operation Ichi-Go (1944), Japan launches a massive offensive against the Chinese government positions. Chinese forces number 1,000,000 troops, against 500,000 Japanese troops, 6000 artillery pieces, 800 tanks, and 150,000 vehicles. China loses the campaign, suffering 750,000 casualties, and 6,723 artillery pieces. Japan loses 100,000 men. During the height of this battle, China's government sends its best troops to Burma to help the British fight against Japanese forces there, in order to re-open the Burma road.
Following the Ichi-Go campaign, China launches a counter attack. Battle of West Hunan (1945), 200,000 Chinese troops against 80,000 Japanese troops. Allied victory.

Second Guangxi Campaign (1945), 600,000 Chinese troops defeat 660,000 Japanese troops, and China pushes Japan out of Southern China.

Significant front that affected the world war significantly, if we consider Japan to be a significant actor in the world war. Without this never-ending war, Japan found itself stuck in, unable to set up a larger puppet government or find a cease-fire, Japan spent more and more resources into the China war black-hole. The more the war waged on, the more popular opinion about Japan fell, Japan became so tunnel visioned on forcing a Chinese peace that they went to war with the West to pursue that goal.

Its fairly obvious the Chinese front was important. It's not only about what China did, but what could have happened if China gave up.
 
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Alexoren

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China lacks the ability to project their power outside of their own country within the timeframe of WW2. All of the other majors have a chance to seriously impact the surrounding world.

Hit the nail right on the head. The various countries that took part in WW2 aren't not important compared to the majors. They all had different levels of involvement, but few were basically meaningless. China was very important because of its resistance to Japanese expansion and the eventual conflict between the US and Japan. However, China had no direct effect on the rest of the world like the other majors did. Every single one of the majors directly effected other nations on a global scale.
 
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Dessertspoon

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The system is kind of weird I agree, and none of the rationales as to why really seem that consistent. People are perfectly happy to have France as a major, with a NF tree and so fourth even though their job in the game is pretty much to get their asses kicked by Germany and be wiped from the map by 1940 with 0 influence on the rest of the game. And yet some of those same people use that argument against Poland being a major, because it's job is to be wiped in 1939 so whats the point of PDX resources being expended for a useless tech tree/unit models?

China is the same category as Poland in my opinion. Designed to lose for the AI, but make it as draining as possible on the Major invading.

Yes but France can be put in this category too more or less, except it is often said by players that with France you can alter the outcome of the war and stomp Germany if you are skilful enough so therefore they are a major. Why shouldn't other pivotal nations like China, Czech Republic and Poland be put on equal footing with unique stuff for when a human is controlling them?

In past games being a major literally meant nothing though. It just meant your country started with 60IC or higher. No special benefits really. This time, majors get added flavour through the NF system and I guess many folks just feel China at this time is big and important and durable enough to 1948 to deserve a cool historical tree.

I can see how it would be galling for some people to hear that their country, which was to Japan what USSR was to Germany i.e. tore the heart out of their proud army, is less important or 'major' than a country which surrendered to a technically and numerically inferior force within 6 weeks of being invaded
 
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VladPrus

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Yes, this is stupid, France which fell in first year of war is major, Italy, which wasn't really ready to war and lost almost all campaigns is major, but China, which had impact on the war is minor. It wouldn't be bad, but majors have unique national focus tree and more unique things. Why devs think France (which has rally little impact) more deserve to spacial treatment, than China?
 
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Gethsemani

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China should probably be a major based on its' contribution in the Pacific theater and its' very special domestic political situation with a on/off civil war and local warlords that were only nominally united. My hope is that a future DLC will address China and give at least ComChi and NatChi their own policy trees, that will allow for some alternatives in regards to how to conduct the re-unification and the war against Japan.

That being said, I fully understand why Paradox didn't include it in the base game since it would take a lot of scripting and plotting to properly lay out and those are resources that are better spent with the 7 majors for the initial release.
 
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