WW I Blockade of Germany - Why Not Break It?

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Acheron

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Churchill was bold and willing to take risks. He wasn't stupid or flagrantly incompetent.
Usually...
This isn't really true, and in retrospect that fact makes Germany's prewar diplomacy look even worse.

For example, in the First Moroccan Crisis, when Germany (through threats of war) successfully cowed France into dismissing Theophile Declasse, the anti-German foreign minister and architect of the Entente Cordiale, and received an offer to come to a direct settlement between the two powers on the issue of Morocco, Germany refused and continued to push for an international conference to further humiliate France!! It's astonishing. When offered a French rapproachment, Germany refused because they believed they were the bigger power and didn't need a friendly France. They could just bully her around.

Reminds me of what a lecturer at the Munich university once said: pre-WWI Germany liked to complain how they were surrounded by hostile powers ("encirclement", "Einkreisung"), well, what kind of of abysmal failure of diplomacy gets left-wing Republican France, conservative Britain and arch-reactionary absolutist Czarist Russia into one alliance?

Or in other words "Let's be an asshole to everyone and wonder why nobody likes us."
 

ConjurerDragon

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Surely the more glorious amphibious invasion route would've been to secretly weaken the blockade in order to absolutely overwhelm the Austro-Hungarians, landing a huge force at Trieste to encircle the entire Austro-Hungarian army in the alps, and then marching alongside the Italians straight up to Vienna and Munich, then round the back of the German army on the Western Front in order to capture the whole lot of them?

Why march at all? After the capture of Istanbul Winston could have simply sailed up the Danube on his Yacht followed by a fleet of Battle Cruisers and threatened to shell Vienna... :rolleyes:
 

bz249

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Why march at all? After the capture of Istanbul Winston could have simply sailed up the Danube on his Yacht followed by a fleet of Battle Cruisers and threatened to shell Vienna... :rolleyes:

That's not going to work the bridges of Budapest are deliberately built so low, that no British BC is going to pass under them.

Though they originally planned to keep the Italians and not the British out.
 

Geriander

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That's not going to work the bridges of Budapest are deliberately built so low, that no British BC is going to pass under them.

Though they originally planned to keep the Italians and not the British out.

2 hours pf shelling later....What bridges of Budapest?:D
 

Herbert West

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2 hours pf shelling later....What bridges of Budapest?:D

The ones now in the watwr, acting as perfect artificial reefs denying anything with a draft great than a meter or so. Destroyed things don't just evaporate
 

Easy-Kill

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The ones now in the watwr, acting as perfect artificial reefs denying anything with a draft great than a meter or so. Destroyed things don't just evaporate

While it's a pretty stupid preposition to destroy bridges in Budapest, it is far less stupid than the thought of floating a battle cruiser down the Danube to Budapest.
 

Avernite

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While it's a pretty stupid preposition to destroy bridges in Budapest, it is far less stupid than the thought of floating a battle cruiser down the Danube to Budapest.
Ah, but I think the proposal was to float it up the Danube to Budapest. BIG difference :p
 

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Why didn't the British seek out a decisive battle with the Germans after Jutland? They already had a significant numerical advantage, which could have become overwhelming if they coordinated their efforts with their French/Russian/Italian allied fleets.

Why do you think the HSF could have won in the German Bight?

Why didn't the British simply sail past the main German naval base at Wilhelmshaven and make a beeline for the north German coast? There were plenty of juicy targets on that coast -- Berlin is just a few miles from the coast, and as a hub of political military, and economic activity its capture would have crippled the strongest of the Central Powers.

Of course with hindsight bias everything becomes obvious to us. But wasn't there someone in the RN who was asking these questions?

1) The Royal Navy would have loved to have had another try at sinking the High Seas Fleet, but after Jutland the Germans were putting everything into submarines and declined to send their battleships out.

2) Winning a naval battle with WW1 tech usually required good intelligence, decent communications and superior force. Despite using zeppelins and submarines as scouts, Germany could not count on having good intelligence as to the whereabouts of the British Grand Fleet. The converse was not true - German use of wireless meant the British usually knew when an operation was 'on', though that intelligence was sometimes not appreciated. The only places the German Fleet was really safe were Wilhelmshaven and the Baltic. In the right circumstances, either side could win a naval battle in the North Sea, but the odds of the right circumstances coming up favored Britain.

3) Landing an army on the North German coast would have gotten that army crushed - Germany had reserves a short distance away and good railroads. Going through neutral Denmark to get to the Baltic would have been a nightmare - the few channels suitable for big ships are easily mined, and Germany could easily shift battleships from Wilhelmshaven to the Baltic via the Kiel canal. Something like that was proposed by the Royal Navy before WW1 and the Army generals were so horrified they refused to even consider it.

4) Yes, everyone from Jellicoe on down. But there was no way to force the High Seas Fleet to come out and fight, and every chance that foolishly risking the Royal Navy would cut Britain's maritime supply lines and open her to invasion. With that sort of stake, you take carefully calculated risks - you don't just gamble.


@Acheron - German diplomatic ability sharply declined with the ousting of Bismarck, I think. I do like that quote - it sums it up pretty well. And Wilhelm II embodied the worst combination of traits, being energetic and incompetent. I mean that last in the social sense - raised on flattery and always told how wonderful he was.
 

Eusebio

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4) Yes, everyone from Jellicoe on down. But there was no way to force the High Seas Fleet to come out and fight, and every chance that foolishly risking the Royal Navy would cut Britain's maritime supply lines and open her to invasion. With that sort of stake, you take carefully calculated risks - you don't just gamble.

Yes, hence Churchill's quote that Jellicoe was "the only man who could lose the war in an afternoon".
 

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@Eusebio - Churchill might not have been right, but he wasn't far wrong, I think.

It has been said that it is impossible to defeat a guerilla force if you permit them a safe haven, and something of the same sort applies here. So long as Britain could not be invaded and could not have her supply lines threatened, Germany could not force her to make peace. Jutland and the U-boat campaigns were attempts to do to British lines of supply as Britain was doing to the Germans.
 

bz249

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Yes, hence Churchill's quote that Jellicoe was "the only man who could lose the war in an afternoon".

While losing the entire Royal Navy might have caused trouble for the British (note: the Germans still have fight against basic stuff like forced landing without equipment, logistical troubles and the mere fact that their fleet is more defensive than offensive minded) he had an I win button: if he does not engage the HSF or disengage quickly enough he had a strategic victory. This is something Joffre or Hindenburg lacked, they cannot win by retreating.
 

Avernite

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While losing the entire Royal Navy might have caused trouble for the British (note: the Germans still have fight against basic stuff like forced landing without equipment, logistical troubles and the mere fact that their fleet is more defensive than offensive minded) he had an I win button: if he does not engage the HSF or disengage quickly enough he had a strategic victory. This is something Joffre or Hindenburg lacked, they cannot win by retreating.
Eh, it's not that 'losing the entire Royal Navy' allows the Germans to march on London, it's that it allows them to break the blockade and break into the Channel (thereby cutting supply lines between the British army and Britain).
 

gagenater

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While losing the entire Royal Navy might have caused trouble for the British (note: the Germans still have fight against basic stuff like forced landing without equipment, logistical troubles and the mere fact that their fleet is more defensive than offensive minded) he had an I win button: if he does not engage the HSF or disengage quickly enough he had a strategic victory. This is something Joffre or Hindenburg lacked, they cannot win by retreating.

A German victory on the heels of defeating the Royal navy wouldn't take the form of the Germans landing troops in the UK. It would allow the Germans to conduct a successful blockade of the British isles preventing the British from taking any serious offensive action, or properly supplying their forces on the continent.

Edit: Avernite beat me to it.
 
Last edited:

Easy-Kill

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Ah, but I think the proposal was to float it up the Danube to Budapest. BIG difference :p
I have spent days trying to think of a pithy comeback ... And I cant.

I owe you a beer (a lovel Belgian beer).
 

nuarbnellaffej

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Why not? What am I not seeing? I understand that it's impossible to completely break the blockade, but it need not be broken to have an impact on the course of the war, or at least gain negotiating power, or lessen the will of foreign governments to continue at great cost.
One potential issue I see with sending German ships out of port would be that a lot of them would end up sunk for no strategic gain at all. Even if they manage to sink an equivalent number of British naval ships(which I doubt) it would not change anything at all since the British could (perhaps unhappily) afford such loses due to their greater numbers.

When naval commanders and upper echelon leadership have no care about their subordinates’ lives you end up with missions like operation Ten-go, where scores of virulent, strong young men are thrown away on a fools errand only to die horrific scalding deaths or drown for absolutely no gain at all.
 

Henry IX

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When naval commanders and upper echelon leadership have no care about their subordinates’ lives you end up with missions like operation Ten-go,

Or you end up with a mutiny that ends up causing the collapse of your government and the loss of the war. Which is why a callus disregard for your mens lives and a demand that they die to satisfy your honour is a bad idea.
 

bz249

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A German victory on the heels of defeating the Royal navy wouldn't take the form of the Germans landing troops in the UK. It would allow the Germans to conduct a successful blockade of the British isles preventing the British from taking any serious offensive action, or properly supplying their forces on the continent.

Edit: Avernite beat me to it.

IMHO it would be a form that the Entente have to give up the Dover Barrage and supply their troops using a longer trip. Because if the Royal Navy is gone it does not mean that the HSF automatically gains control over the North Sea, rather the reverse of the original status. Now the Entente have to pull back to their coastal waters to have a fighting chance against a numerically superior enemy. Sure the threat of the Thames Estuary and/or the Dover Barrage might be enough to change the balance on the continent, but it is still a long way till the Germans can convert it to actually winning the war.
 

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@bz249 - I think a serious reverse for the Royal Navy would have massive follow-on effects, not minimal ones. There would be immediate, pressing concern over food and raw materials supplies for the home islands, real fear of invasion and an urgent need to build a lot of new warships, quickly. All of that means resources diverted from the army in France, which basically spells retreat or at the very least the end of offensive action. Longer, exposed supply routes to France, coupled with the issues of trans-shipping by railroad from Brest, Le Havre or Bordeaux to Flanders, would force the Royal Navy to use capital ships to escort troop and supply convoys. The French ports would be overburdened, the railroads would be overloaded and, given the Royal Navy's inability to promise security for its supplies, the British Army might try to evacuate Flanders. And not incidentally the use of heavy units for convoy escort in the south opens up the North Sea exits in the North for German raiders and blockade runners. The threats of invasion, convoy destruction and so forth do not have to happen, they only have to be seriously credible for Britain to have to take immediate, drastic steps, and every effort they make will benefit Germany.

This may all sound alarmist and overblown, but the Royal Navy sweated blood in 1914 over getting the BEF safely to France, and the French transport network (including ports and railroads) were heavily overstrained by war imports. Adding distance to shipping increases the amount of shipping required and delays delivery - this, coupled with invasion scares (the fear would be real whether the invasion was a credible threat or not) and a massive shift in resources from the Army back to the Navy, would curtail - perhaps end - the Army's scope of action. Remember that the BEF went to Flanders principally because that was where it could be most securely and easily supplied. If the Channel ports aren't usable, the Home Islands are threatened and supplies and reinforcements are in doubt then what does the BEF do? Ask France to pick up the slack?

The High Seas Fleet hoped their Jutland operation would catch a detached portion of the Grand Fleet (like Beatty's mishandled battlecruisers, plus perhaps a battleship division) and crush it under the guns of the full German fleet. Given the public response to an equivocal British victory at Jutland, an outright British defeat might well have brought down the government; at the very least, Jellicoe, Beatty and the First Lord of the Admiralty would be sacked. Certainly whomever was in charge at Whitehall would have a full-blown crisis of civilian and army supply on their hands plus an invasion scare on the order of 1940-41. The benefits of this to Germany would fully vindicate the building of the High Seas Fleet and directly impact the course of the war.

At one point, Admiral Hipper proposed sending German battlecruisers into the North Atlantic for convoy-raiding. In the aftermath of a British loss at Jutland (assuming the German ships were not too extensively damaged) this plan would likely be revisited. Adopted? Who knows... but the threat would certainly be there and the British would have to honor it.

I do think a German 'win' would be fleeting - the Royal Navy still would have a lot of assets and it would have 'blood in its eye and murder in its heart'. And it is easier to challenge for sea supremacy than to keep it... if the High Seas Fleet tried to capitalize on its success with further ambitious operations in the North Sea it might find itself 'foxed' in turn. But however that turned out, the aftermath of a German win at Jutland would be very bad for the Allies, especially so given that the operation's historical failure led to the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare by Germany and the entry of the United States into the war on the Allied side.
 

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- I think a serious reverse for the Royal Navy would have massive follow-on effects, not minimal ones. There would be immediate, pressing concern over food and raw materials supplies for the home islands, real fear of invasion and an urgent need to build a lot of new warships, quickly. All of that means resources diverted from the army in France, which basically spells retreat or at the very least the end of offensive action. Longer, exposed supply routes to France, coupled with the issues of trans-shipping by railroad from Brest, Le Havre or Bordeaux to Flanders, would force the Royal Navy to use capital ships to escort troop and supply convoys. The French ports would be overburdened, the railroads would be overloaded and, given the Royal Navy's inability to promise security for its supplies, the British Army might try to evacuate Flanders. And not incidentally the use of heavy units for convoy escort in the south opens up the North Sea exits in the North for German raiders and blockade runners. The threats of invasion, convoy destruction and so forth do not have to happen, they only have to be seriously credible for Britain to have to take immediate, drastic steps, and every effort they make will benefit Germany.

This may all sound alarmist and overblown, but the Royal Navy sweated blood in 1914 over getting the BEF safely to France, and the French transport network (including ports and railroads) were heavily overstrained by war imports. Adding distance to shipping increases the amount of shipping required and delays delivery - this, coupled with invasion scares (the fear would be real whether the invasion was a credible threat or not) and a massive shift in resources from the Army back to the Navy, would curtail - perhaps end - the Army's scope of action. Remember that the BEF went to Flanders principally because that was where it could be most securely and easily supplied. If the Channel ports aren't usable, the Home Islands are threatened and supplies and reinforcements are in doubt then what does the BEF do? Ask France to pick up the slack?

I agree with a lot of these points, but there are other things which need to be considered. Let us suppose that the Germans achieve a great victory over the Royal Navy and shatter its Battleship fleet and its ability to maintain supreme control over the North Sea and German ability to sail into the Atlantic.

The first point to consider is that the UK was in no way as dependent as Germany on the import of many goods. The UK did import many grain products from overseas it was was more productive than Germany in terms general agriculture

For example Britain was both more productive despite being a smaller nation in terms of many sectors, the most important of which are agriculture are probably those of agriculture and construction (where the UK was more productive). What was actually seen in the UK was that agriculture had shifted with imports focusing on grain, wheat and potatoes and home production focusing on meats and dairy produce. There is already historical precedence for the UK agriculture sector being able to absorb a drop in imports in this sector - in 1916 the US harvest was particularly poor, yet by 1918 UK home production of grains and potatoes had grown by around 1/3 while the meat/dairy had shrunk by a proportional amount [1,2]. That is, the UK was more robustly able to absorb changes in world markets and import situations.

Now, lets entertain the idea that Germany forces on the RN a defeat which reverses the situation ... that is the Grand Fleet does not leave its harbors for the remainder of the war. Would Germany be able to impose a blockade of similar severeness as the UK? Probably not - in the first instance, the UK was able to blockade at range, closing the north sea and English Channel, where all of the German import docks were established along a single coast. To do so, Germany would have to close off the entire Atlantic something that would be logistically a challenge and would force German forces to 'disperse' their strength - that is, battleships/cruisers acting in isolation could be forced to fight strategically disadvantaged actions. So yes, Germany could have an effect, but no they would not cut off trade as completely as the UK was able to.

The other consideration is that the German fleet wasn't really a High Seas fleet ... it was a North Sea Fleet. The ships were principally coal powered and given that Germany had no overseas bases from which to conduct coaling operations, their forrays into the Atlantic would have been relatively short, before they need to sail back to Germany and re-load. That is, sailing into the middle of the Atlantic already uses about 1/3 of their sailing range.

The idea that Germany might disrupt shipping in the English Channel is also a little erroneous. There was one of the worlds largest destroyer fleets stationed in the channel (Dover I think) and were highly effective at engaging battleships (with Torpedos) in constrained waters. The German destroyer torpedo volley was one of the things which helped to cover the German high seas fleet as it disengaged.

[1] THE UNITED KINGDOM DURING WORLD WAR I: BUSINESS AS USUAL? Stephen Broadberry 2003.
[1] “Anglo-German Productivity Differences, 1870-1990: A Sectoral Analysis”, European Review of Economic History 1, 247-267.

I do think a German 'win' would be fleeting - the Royal Navy still would have a lot of assets and it would have 'blood in its eye and murder in its heart'. And it is easier to challenge for sea supremacy than to keep it... if the High Seas Fleet tried to capitalize on its success with further ambitious operations in the North Sea it might find itself 'foxed' in turn. But however that turned out, the aftermath of a German win at Jutland would be very bad for the Allies, especially so given that the operation's historical failure led to the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare by Germany and the entry of the United States into the war on the Allied side.
I think that this is the crux - a German victory would be bad, but not the end of allied operations. The high seas fleet was actually a North Seas fleet. Germany did not have the overseas logistics to sustain such a world-wide fleet as the Anglo-Americans operated. Even if they win, they gain superiority in the North Seas but struggle to projec their power anywhere that would have a decisive impact.